Affluence and Class - Linked?

[deviladvocate]

Prompted by thread in chat regarding being middle class, I was startled at how many posters were offended by the suggestion that being middle class was defined by income.

AIBU to think that affluence and class are inextricably linked? Doesn't being able to move beyond simply providing food and shelter for your family mean that you become middle class - by virtue of being able to focus on the nice-to haves and not just on the essentials?

Oh I actually think, in a recession, the people with lots of money should spend, spend, spend.

The economy won't get stimulated by mattresses stuffed with cash. The savings rates are bugger all, spending in this climate is the way forward.

Come on Abramovich, buy a new Yacht or three (utilising British craftsmanship)

Indeed, the MC habit of saving/investing is not looking too hot right now is it?

Houses are worth less than paid for. Pensions are looking decidedly flacid. Stocks and shares are in the doldrums

I think class often defines class. What I think people are talking about when they talk about education/attitudes is that people can be raised in one class and move into another. I think it is at this point questions get asked about what class the person is.

So someone born into a very wealthy family that has been wealthy for hundreds of years, owned stately homes in the past, is clearly upper class. But then that person can lose all their family wealth, for whatever reason, and be really poor. They mayhave a low income then, but they will probably come across as someone very different to someone who has been raised in and lived on a low income all their life.

Similarly with massive lottery winners. May have income of upper class or upper middle class, but have come from a background of poverty. But many wouldn't consider them upper class or upper middle class.

I can't imagine anyone would agree for example that someone is upper class whose family and they have always been very poor, but have the attitudes of the upper class. So money obviously is part of the mix.

The middle class is very overcrowded. People scramble to get there but once they reach the lofty heights you can't get the buggers out again. So they stay middle class but poor with it, no wonder the economy is fucked

come come:we all know that chickens have a "pecking order" So do human beings. It seems to be a law of nature. Youcannot live in one of the oldest monarchies in the world and not have noticed the pecking order.

Dont ask me if its good or bad. I am just telling you that it seems to be the
way human beings organise themselves. Unless you know different.

lequeen I wonder if class will matter even les to our DC as we move into a far more globalised economy.
The traditional community which has been one of the mainstays of class signifiers, will mean almost nothing to young people who will think globally and virtually...

The signifiers of class will be far less precious to a generation who will be inheriting a heap of financial shit. They will either be on the bus or off it.

Sorry my first sentence should have said money often defines class But...

yes Lelsley, money is a big part of the mix. But we English go big on mode of speek as old Bernard Shaw pointed out in pygmailion or was it My Fair Lady.

Old GBS would probably have murdered the creator of that musical; but I think it put across the posh angle rather well. For the record. I talk posher than my parents.Its partly because I Love the language.

The kettles boiling. Tea is my drug of choice. byeeeee

But we only go big on mode of speaking if it is seen as "genuine" i.e. person is from a well of background even if they are now poor. As a society we laugh at people who are poor and come from a poor background, but try and speak "posh".

wordfactory....I take your points; and always find your candour interesting.
But the kettle really is boiling. (And my better half is steaming too)

Aargh teeth gnashing emoticon.

We are on an extremely low income. We are WC class no doubt about it. I have two well mannered bright personable children, a hard working husband with a neurological condition, a HA house that I keep well and a happy home.
To me THAT'S working class done good.

That probably makes me simplistic idealistic etc. I swear I had never heard the phrase
"oh he was working class done good" uttered by an actual working class person. It's an odd phrase, uncomfortable.

But I see we have moved on and I am still harping on about that so

Statistically you could say class and affluence are probably correlated, but I don't think you can say class is defined by affluence - there are clearly lots of the genteel who are down at heel choose low paying roles, and lots of crass rich people.

nobility is naught but ancient riches

wordfactory - I think its true that stricter class distinctions have broken down. But I think the young do still recognise larger class distinctions. So for example, I have heard and seen young people working in shops, etc call men with "posh" accents sir and seem slightly cowed whilst being ordinary with everyone else.

Prince William and Harry have in the past attended upper class parties where they dress as chavs.

So I don't think class distinctions have broken down totally and I don't think they will in the foreseeable future.

Fooffyshmooffer and usual suspect, i think i get where you are coming from but i come at the expression from a different angle. There is nothing wrong with being aspirational and generally people are respected for improving their circumstances. It doesn't matter that others don't (or indeed can't ).

There is absolutely nothing wrong with staying in the class you were born into. My dad is a WC lad done good, as he would say. I am not working class by any stretch of the imagination. A MC going upwards could possibly only do so by marriage or extraordinary service to the country (knighted etc) and even then it would be the children, grandchildren etc who reflected this change more than them. That leap is harder to achieve so there isn't really an expression for it?

It makes me uncomfortable too ,I don't aspire to be MC whatever that means

I don't feel inferior because of where I live or the job I do

I'm not ashamed of my life at all

whatmeworry - But the examples you give is where of people have grown up in one class and their wealth has changed e.g. genteel poor. Surely you wouldn't consider someone is poor and comes from a very poor family,genteel whatever their attitudes/culture.

My best friend is upper middle class
well educated (boarding school)
Good degree good university.
her DH has similar background.
Live in a big old house (no money for repairs family money spent years ago by a family member going on an archialogical dig and blowing millions)
Have aga, dogs, barbours and hunter wellies.
Speak with upper class accent, eat from antique china and family silver everyday, just because it's there. Hunting, shooting and fishing at weekends. patches in the brora cardi's that are years old, and some family jewels ( lots have been sold to pay bills) family portraits on walls, and a downstairs loo with a long old fashioned pull chain.
Totally bonkers, mad as a march hare, but love the whole family to bits.

DH and I drive clapped out cars but have a lovely home, which I'm proud of.
My kids wear Tesco and Asda, I buy Boden off eBay (because some of their things are gorgeous) and designer gear and logo'r are not to be seen anywhere in our wardrobes, but everyone comments how lovely my children look.

Apart from this laptop, the only gadgets we have in our house is my much-loved food mixer . We don't even own a large telly.

I'm a Doc by training (on long term leave) and DH is a HeadTeacher. I love our life.

I notice that children's friends parents have a higher disposable income than us, and seem to drive super-duper huge new cars. They've got Wii-Everything and talk about gadgets that I've never even heard of! I don't mind either way. Money and affluence aren't always connected.

Forgot to add, that I don't actually know what class we would be.
Not something I really bother thinking about.

I'm not sure I get why class is supposed to be significant anymore.

DH and I could not possibly be anything other than MC despite having been very poor at some points and are still not exactly loaded (but doing perfectly fine now IMO). I don't care that we are MC, and our kids will be middle class too.

I don't care what class other people are. I don't care how other people spend their money (as long as it's not illegal/horribly immoral), I don't see how these things are indicators of class.

It really annoys me how often a brand can seemingly slip down the social scale, and people that would have happily owned that brand a few years ago and not considered it flashy/'chavvy' will say that it is as soon as people that don't consider to be like them start buying it too. It's a totally shit attitude, which feels to me like you are demanding other classes should "know their place" and that these brands are not for you. Why not?