Affluence and Class - Linked?

[deviladvocate]

Prompted by thread in chat regarding being middle class, I was startled at how many posters were offended by the suggestion that being middle class was defined by income.

AIBU to think that affluence and class are inextricably linked? Doesn't being able to move beyond simply providing food and shelter for your family mean that you become middle class - by virtue of being able to focus on the nice-to haves and not just on the essentials?

There is often an inverse correlation between ostentatious affluence and class.

At present there is more likely to be an inverse relationship with having any affluence and class.

The trad middel classes are skint.

The Two Ronnies & John Cleese did that wonderful sketch about class - no longer available on you tube

Attitude and nothing else.
It doesn't matter if you are WC or MC, it doesnt matter how you define yourself or how others define you, what matters is if you have class. You will only find that in people's attitudes.

Are you orange and have lips like a fish harriet?

Some people do not like to identify as middle class (because that class is the butt of so many jokes) and so will go to quite tortuous lengths to justify membership of a different class.

Movement between classes is a slowish process - the children of the nouveau riche may well be solidly middle class. A graduate embarking on a professional job becomes middle class too, even if it takes a decade or so for that realisation to sink in. The children of the daughter of a Duke marrying a binman will be working class not aristocrats, especially if they marry the boy next door - but if they have brains and end up in the professions, they will be very middle class. Someone who wins the lottery in their 20s may have moved up the class structure by the time they're 40; but a winner in their 40s won't make at move as they will be so much more settled in their ways.

The two are not linked all the time but they might go together a lot of the time iyswim. I'm judging this from a bit of an outside perspective as I'm not British and the whole class issue seems very Britain specific to me.

For example, DH's family, the maternal side, is working class through and through. In the case of his grandparents, it's in a good way. They are grounded, have always worked for the little they had and are genuinely nice.

Then you get to the generation of their children. DH's aunt and uncle. They are what you would call "working class done good". His aunt has no qualifications but married a fisherman with his own boat. They have 2 small children and plenty of money. A massive house, expensive cars, loads of expensive holidays. BUT they don't have the common sense, intellect or whatever you want to call it, to go with the money. While the children are only dressed in the most expensive clothes, they don't own a single book. Never had picture books or the like as toddlers but got computer games, own dvd players etc at the age of 2! An Ipad and mobile phone at 3! I kid you not! For the his 4th birthday, one of the boys got a quad bike, not a kiddy play one but a proper one, to drive around in the field behind their house. DH tried it out, the thing is heavy, big and super fast for a child that age, 40mph or something like that. It's not a toy, it's a fatal accident waiting to happen but his aunt and uncle, who are genuinely nice people btw, believe that the more something costs, the better it is as a gift. Educational value etc is not taken into consideration at all. The children are also only fed garlic bread, chips and chicken nuggets because that's what they ask for.

Sorry if this is all judmental of me but it's how I see it. Hope my explanation makes sense.

It's called was originally called 'social' class ( relating to your place in society , generally through birth, family and education ) , social classification has now been changed by the ONS to 'socio economic' classification to relate to employment patterns
See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_structure_of_the_United_Kingdom
Yes I know it's wikipedia but it's the only page I can find with it all in one place

No. But - there is a basis to the stereotype I have to say.

TOWIE country is twinned with the parts of New Jersey where I grew up.

So clearly I feel some affinity liked being looked down upon for pale complexion and used cars

There is some fluidity, all the chavvy (but perfectly nice) perma tanned cork wedge Mums in Alderley Edge are desperate for their dds to get into the girls school there. It's a good school but more importantly it's another thing to go with the 4x4 and the chandelier in the hallway and all the other ostentatious, in your face, opposite of discreet markers of a luxuriant materialistic lifestyle, it proves to the world that they're moving on up, at least via their dds, who will leave (if they're not as thick as their parents) with a good education, excellent qualifications and they will probably morph into the middle classes.

I live less than a mile from Cheshire in Manchester but the shift in the atmosphere and culture between the 2 places is tangible.

Myself and dh have drifted together class wise. me down and him up, and stragely enough it's him from a working class background who's more obsessed with living in a certain area etc. I'm not actually that bothered and would happily live in a less affluent area with more of a mix of people.

Money has nothing to do with class. Class is via your upbringing.

Even when I'm skint, I'm still a classy bird innit

Class is a cobbled together stereotype of mannerisms, traditions, attitudes, habits, beliefs, dress, acquisitions, accent & behaviour.... You say 'act upper class' to a kid and they all do the same thing... nose in the air, la-di-dah voice. Class stereotypes are no more real or meaningful than racial or national stereotypes.

It's true money can't buy class, hence Burberry frantically trying to re construct their image after Daniella Westbrook and Victoria Beckham trashed it. I have a friend who dresses her dd in a Burberry coat whilst she herself has a jumper with Burberry patches on the elbows....it just looks awful because of the way the label was taken on by the WAGs et al as a kind of Uniform in the late 90s early 00s.

Now their "face" is Kate Moss, trying to give it some cool, but the caps will always be a symbol to me of NF football hooligans hanging round Stockport Precinct!

It is interesting though what each class thinks of another?

The true upper classes/landed gentry/aristos - whatever you want to call them, all drive shitty old cars, never bath, wear clothes they bought a few decades ago, that are patched to buggery - if you lived next door to someone like that in the real world you'd just be thinking 'skanky'!

I always find it funny that so many middel class folk look down their noses at the working lcasses for being poor and having no aspiration.

Yet they still look down their nose at those members of the working classes who have aspired to more. Apparently they don't spend their money in quite the right way.

Because the way money is spend is quite often revealing of whether someone has just money to throw around or if they actually have the class and brain to go with it.

You're brave OP!

FWIW I think the "working class done good" lot are actually "middle class in denial"

But I see there are already comments along the lines of middle class people looking down their noses and the like so I'm off. Middle/working class is the new breast/bottle, wohm/sahm it seems and I hide those threads too.

I'll admit that as an American living in this country, the class system in the U.K. is utterly baffling to me. Amusing at times, but utterly baffling.

If it were purely based on income, we'd be on the low-ish side here for sure . DH is an academic/lecturer, educated w/a PhD but makes crap salary. In the U.S. class is far more based on job/education. Anyone with a college degree would most likely be at least middle class (although "middle" is a HUGE, huge range in the States)

I'd like to think that class was more education based here, but everytime some smug mum at the school gates looks down at me b/c we cannot afford a bloody car on DH's salary alone, and can only afford to rent...one has to wonder.

Halbanoo

Genuine question - I have seen the expression "college degree" used before by Americans. Is this the same as a university degree here?

Here there are often distinctions drawn (patronisingly yet frequently) between 'top' universities - Oxford, Cambridge, 'good' universities - most of the established ones and 'other' (i.e. poor) universities such as ex-polytechnics.

What different classifications of degree / university do you have in the US?

I'm so with you Halbanoo.

I would say that class would determine what you would choose to spend your money on rather than how much you have.

hal

You cannot explain it to outsiders, the class sytem simply 'is' - it has it's substratas that are inexplicable but everyone is subconciously aware of them. It can be something as simple as the way you walk or carry a bag.

A degree may have been indicative of 'class' 20 years ago but with the last government push to make every school leaver go into further education and set a policy that 50% get a degree (whether useful or not) that moniker has all but gone.

No they are not linked. You are being wrong. Which is different to being unreasonable.

Wordfactory i loved your post re horses, broadsheets and theatre. COuld you possibly be in denial?