to think that parents contribute to the sleep issues?

[ChocolateBiscuitCake]

Disclaimer: I have two DC who have not always been brilliant sleepers and go through patches of wakefullness at night/early in the morning (!) but...

I have been reading some of the sleep threads and am really surprised by the number of people who have older babies or toddlers who sleep SO badly whilst claiming that they don't know how to improve the situation and won't do any form of CC.

From my experiences, babies have to learn how to sleep well and they do this by you setting up routines and helping them along the way. If you feed your 12 month old milk in the middle of the night, they will keep waking for milk in the night. If you bring them into your bed, they will want to be in your bed. If you have to lie down and hold their hand, they will expect you to be there holding their hand if they wake up.

Nothing changes overnight and teaching your baby/child to sleep well takes patience and consistency. But leaving a baby to cry for 5 minutes is not going to hurt it and ignoring a toddler whilst you drag them back to bed and not give into their ridiculous demands is not difficult. We are the adults!

AIBU to think that some parents need to be a bit tougher rather than find some miracle cure for poor sleep habits?

I am having a tough time at the moment with DS3 (8.5mo) waking for milk every 2 hrs day and night. I will not do CC. 1) I have 3 older dc who would also be woken if I did CC, and they have school the next day. 2) DS3 cannot go into another room away from me - there ISN'T one. 3) The reason he is waking every 2 hrs is NOT for company - he needs milk. He has an labial tie that we are waiting for resection, and he is very inefficient feeder due to this - he is genuinely hungry. CC would not stop him from being hungry, and he will not sleep when he is hungry.

Me not doing CC does NOT mean that I have no right to complain about being tired - I am a lone parent trying to deal with 4 dc, 2 with SN, one a baby that is waking for food 2 hourly. I AM tired. I AM exhausted. Am I meant to say nothing just because I will not do CC?

I think CC is cruel - even without my factors influencing my current decision - and if you ask my friends, I am one of the strictest parents they know. None of my dc have me 'wrapped round their little finger', I am not a parent that gives in to toddler (or teenager!) tantrums. I am the one that says what goes, not my children. But why why why would ANYONE want to leave a tiny BABY upset, for whatever reason, just to 'prove' to people that they are not controlled by their dc? I would worry that it would leave the child insecure - how do they know that someone will come for them when they really need a parent, if they have had CC? And how can ANYONE listen to a tiny baby screaming for 5/10/whatever minutes without it breaking their heart?

Crying is a baby's only way of communication - if a baby is crying, they are trying to TELL you something. Would you be happy if you were upset, and instead of comforting you, your partner left you for 5 mins, came in, said "there,there", and then walked away for 10 mins?? No, you'd think he was a heartless tosspot. So why is it any different with a baby?

I haven't read the whole thread but this is just the typical smug attitude from someone who has never had to deal with real problem sleeping. Children are all different. What works for some doesn't work for others. OP I do hope you're not planning to have any more children because you could get a shock and have a bad sleeper, then you'd have to eat your words!

We all have things that have been easy and things that have been hard in parenting, and it's foolish to take the credit completely for everything that goes well. There's a lot of luck involved.

Mine are now nearly 17 and 13. OP your post has made me cross. Ours were both poor sleepers. We trained DS to go down at 7.30/8ish at about 10 months through controlled crying. Oh yes it works but if your baby/child only needs 7 hours a night it's pretty unpleasant for three or four hours from 2.30 am.

I won't even begin to describe the disruption of 11 ear infections by 15 months and chronic asthma for the first 2-1/2 years. DD needed (and still needs) a bit more sleep but we still had umpteen ear infections in the first 20 months!

Eventually we went with the flow and accepted that if DS went to bed at 10ish he got some quality time with his dad in the evenings and we all got 8 hours of unbroken sleep. Have never had any problem waking either child in the morning (well ds was a bit tough at 15 when he hadn't trained himself to sleep before 12 as independence clicked in).

Have we been terrible parents? Dunno - the DC are popular, clever, determined, polite and pretty fit now they are over their wheezes and bad ears. Lack of sleep didn't stop them growing either - and neither did DS's two years on steroids!! Didn't stop him getting 11 A*s but I suppose it might explain the miserable A for maths

As someone who still can remember what it was like to go through sleep problems some 16 years later.

YABFU

Can I be excused please. Still cranky after all these years

Chocolate he used to wake every two hours for months. We always went to him when younger. As he got older, it got less and I was more comfortable leaving him just to "see". The thing is, I don't recognise the sort of person described in the OP and those who do go "up and down" at bedtime usually have tried leaving them and it doesn't work. I spend a lot of time on the sleep boards - because I remember how awful it was - those were dark days. You sound as if you think all bad sleepers = bad parents. Of course some parents can do things differently to help matters (I know someone who'd put a portable DVD player in their kid's cot at bedtime!!) but sweeping generalisations are not helpful.

As for letting older kids watch tv - this thread was about toddlers and babies where it's a lot harder to deal with sleep problems because half the time you haven't got a clue why they are waking. Which makes it hard because you try things, they don't work and are then left confused. Especially when baby manuals and some smug parents think all you need to do is ignore them. Or just do a bit of CC.

OP are you for real? If only you could spend one night in the Emsmaman household it would change your opinion. Your DC's cannot have been particularly difficult sleepers. Some babies are just RESISTANT to sleep training. We have had nights where DD doesn't sleep until 5am. The last attempt I made at controlled crying when she was 4 months old resulted in her scratching up her face and smearing blood everywhere at the 1 hour mark, at which I stopped. It took her another 4 hours to fall asleep. Should I have left her screaming for 5 hours until she slept (not your magical 5 minutes - if only!!!). If it were 5 minutes or even half an hour I would do it, but it is just not a technique that works. Also there is absolutely no difference in sleep quality during the night whether DD falls asleep completely on her own, on the breast, rocking or with patting and shushing.

our DC3 is nearly 3 and still wakes up every night, I take her to our bed. I love it. We love it. She loves it. We cuddle and then everyone starts snoring. She used to not want to fall asleep on her own and I had to sit with her for an hour every evening. I loved it, sitting in the dark with my iPad as it was the first chance to sit down I had all day. I'm gutted that she doesn't need me there with her any more (after she moved into her brothers' bedroom). Horses for courses, what's someone's sleep problem is another one's perfect life.

Yes, I am for real. And yes I have had poor sleepers (earlier post - which granted was a while back so you probably haven't read - which explains both had reflux and ds2 had breathing issues and was under care at GOSH). so I do know what it is like to be sleep deprived although this is not a thread about who wins for being the most exhausted.

If my child didn't sleep till 5am I would be seeing my gp the next day, surely?! And at no point have I said that crying for 5 minutes would solve the problem...it is letting them cry at 5 minute intervals. Tbh I think 4 months is a little too young anyway. And I am sorry to hear you are having such a hard time.

I think you have a point OP. I do think DCs need to learn to sleep through and if they wake up to go back to sleep.

What many people don't realise is that people slept differently over 100 years ago. Most adults had a small sleep, then got up for a bit and then went back to bed and had a longer sleep. It is only with the spread of artificial lighting that people began to stay up later and just have 1 sleep.

Similarly in some other countries everyone still has a siesta. In spite of friends/neighbours in Switzerland (where I used to live) saying they slept for 1-2 hours at mid day and it made them feel good - I always found it very very difficult to sleep at all in the middle of the day and if it did I usually felt grumpy afterwards!

So I guess my point is that sleep and when we sleep is a learnt thing. Some people may automatically naturally sleep through the night; but most of us to learn to - although some never learn and still struggle as adults.

So I do think it is important to teach children to go to sleep and sleep through the night.

It all depends on what you believe in though doesn't it. I agree that if you choose to co-sleep, feed during the night, not do CC, then you really can't expect a child to spontaneously want to start sleeping in their own bed etc if they are still very little.

However, it is possible to have a child who sleeps well and in their own bed/room and not do CC etc eventually. You just have to wait longer! I co-slept with DS1 until he was about 2.5 and he moved to his own bed with no issues. He was ready and that was that really.

As with everything, you can't have it all. You make your choices and you need to stick with them or take the steps to change things.

I agree with most the what the OP says. Again, like the OP, we have had times where particularly one of our DC wouldn't sleep, usually after she'd been ill. We did the CC thing, 5 minutes.... What are people doing leaving a 4 month old child crying for 1 hour? That's not what's advocated at all.

The OP I think is not talking about DC with SN, but more about parents who, like my DB and SIL, complain that their DC won't sleep, but give them all manner of things in the night instead of insisting that bed is for sleep and giving them a good, solid routine.

I agree HuntyCat - crying is certainly what babies do...when they are upset and need their parent. I don't believe in leaving a child to cry, even for a short while. It's their only way of communicating.

When a child has been crying and then stops after a period of time after being left, they aren't 'self settling', they are exhausted and have given up. When they are repeatedly left time after time and not responded to when they cry, they are learning that when they are distressed nobody responds.

Sorry HuntyCat, that doesn't read how I meant. I really do agree with what you're saying about why babies cry. It reads like I don't, sorry.

I'm convinced that sleep is more to do with personality (of the child!) than anything else.

DD1 just doesn't need a huge amount of sleep and never has, she was horrendous as a baby (waking at least every hour until she was 12mths) regardless of what we did. We tried CC and it did not work, it resulted in a whole night of screaming because we had left the room for one minute, she was 9mths old at the time. So we left her to outgrow it, now she sleeps through, goes to sleep quickly when she is tired (just later than most children).

DD2 first slept through the night at a fortnight old, and reliably slept through from 3 months old. We did nothing different - well, we never tried CC.

Shrug, I don't leave my babies to cry. So I BFd them to sleep cuddle, whatever.

When they are old enough to understand then I will tell them its bedtime and return them to their own room if they are just fucking around.

DS1 is 7.5yrs now, he says goodnight, goes and has a shower and brushes his teeth then reads in bed until lights out time. So my method appears to have worked. Couldn't bear to leave them crying alone in a cot. Can't imagine it is that helpful for learning that bed is a nice safe place.

DS2 at 19months still BFds to sleep. He will grow out of it eventually just like his brother did.

Chocolate, no I hadn't read all your posts. I see now that you're talking about 10 months +, and my DD is 6.5 (although I don't see it drastically changing in 3.5 months). Ilovejudgejudy - I did not leave DD crying for 1 hour unattended, I was constantly checking on her, comforting her without picking her up and for some of the time sitting in the room. The scratching and bleeding happened in the final 5 minute interval. I did not do this out of cruelty but out of desperation and struggling to cope - I do not have family around to help out and give me a break during the day, I have never had more than 2 hours away from DD since she was born because of BF, and at this time I was only managing to get her to nap in the pram which left me no time at all to do anything for myself (shower! Eat!). Many family and friends were pushing the CIO or CC route as they thought we were teaching DD bad habits.

Staying awake until 5am was not a matter for a doctor, it was a lesson to me to not listen to generalised advice, e.g. let babies sleep as long as they want during the day, don't let them fall asleep on you etc. I have now learnt that in my DD's case, when she reaches overtiredness I must do anything to get her to sleep, even if it means her sleeping on me, as she will go for hours and hours once overtired. I can't comment on sleep habits of older babies/toddlers since I'm not there yet.

I have 3 DC. None of them we particuarly good sleepers when babies and I am sure the OP thinks it's all my fault as I co-slept and fed on demand But after trying so hard to get into good routines with my eldest, and failing (and feeling miserable about doing it anyway) I decided that co-sleeping and feeding on demand was the best way to get a reasonable night's sleep. I was working full-time and I went for the path of least resistance. That way we all got some sleep. And they were all sleeping through the night by the age of 3 in their own bed.

The strange thing is that DD, who was always by far the most settled at night, is now the only one of my DC that will take herself off to bed when she is tired. She also finds it easy to get up early. She's a morning person like me. The boys are the opposite and take after their dad. I think that you can't make a hard and fast rule for all children.

Emsmaman, I agree with you - my eldest DS sounds very similar.

I do think that some children just have poor responses to tiredness i.e. they get more stimulated and more worked up, making it more difficult for them to sleep.

DS1 is certainly like this, DS2 is not.

I think you can fiddle around the edges with sleep training, CC for some children, it is always going to be an effort.

We would when people gave us advice on how to get DS1 to sleep. We joked that for years DS1 had a consistent bedtime routine - relaxing bath, stories in bed, lullabies, lights out, 2 hours of jumping on bed, standing on head and dismantling furniture.

Oh right - so it's fine for people to not like controlled crying, but unless they're willing to try it, they forfeit the right to ever be frustrated, have a moan, express a notion that perhaps it would be nice to have some sleep?

You are aware that most people who don't want to do CC aren't just saying this so that they can be some kind of martyr, but that it's an actual, moral or ethical belief for them that CC is harmful or contrary to the way they want to raise their children?

People are allowed to struggle and ask for advice without being told to compromise their own morals and beliefs. I'm sure you must have been frustrated with your children at some point - does it mean you shouldn't complain about this, because you made a choice to have them? Of course it doesn't.

A child will learn to sleep through and to self settle when they are ready, some earlier than others with some children needing virtually no intervention from the parents. As I said some adults are poor sleepers and once they wake cannot get back to sleep, toss and turn until morning. Some adults are out when their heads hit the pillow. I have a vert poor light sleeper she is getting better.

Thanks for posting that marriedinwhite, saved me the trouble of typing almost exactly the same!

Mine are 20, 18 and 15 and I didnt get a night's sleep for 10 years! Try adding asthma and excema into the mix of miserable crying and then try and get tough. And they're all lovely kids now and 2 at RG unis too! Not turned out badly I dont think.

You find your own way through family life and its trials and tribulations and you go with your own instincts. Mine was that if they cried they needed something.

Asusming that one view of family life fits all is the mistaken premiss of this thread...

YANBU OP much as I hate to say it because thinking that my sons' sleep issues were actually my fault stings a little!!

My eldest is a breeze now, time changed all that sleep craziness, he simply grew into his own good routine, no major intervention from me.

My youngest is better than he was through pure stubborn determination and consistency from me.

I don't like to 'blame' myself, rather I take responsibility at sorting the problems, if I think too much about blame I'd feel guilty and I have enough guilt to deal with on a daily basis by just being a mother!

Genuine question here then piglet:

Do you think poor adult sleepers were poor baby/child sleepers?

I ask because I really believe that sleep is a learnt skill - like maths, some find it easy, some don't (I am not including SN this, like I wouldn't if we are discussing maths, for example). But, like maths, if you are taught well and the basic skills then it falls mostly into place, with some easy phases and some harder phases depending on the individual.

I wake in the night but have no need to then have a drink/read a book/watch telly/make a cup of tea in order to get back to sleep. I roll over and sleep. But then I learnt how to sleep well as a baby.

People ask for advice because they want someone to help fix the problem I.e their child sleeping badly. There is n magic solution - either you have to ride it out until around 3, it would appear from most responses or you need to try a tougher approach. Or is their a magic solution that I have missed?

Well I can disprove that theory straightaway. I was a perfect sleeper as a baby - according to my mum. She was a no nonsense sort of parent - I was just left to get on with it at night and by and large I did! And I am not now. I can sleep very well but i am just as likely to have disturbed nights, as I am currently.

I don't think sleep is a learned skill - that's like saying breathing is a learned skill. We all need to sleep - but we don't all do it the same way. You may be right that learning to sleep as society expects us to (ie between 7 and 10 hrs a night between the hours of 10 and 8) is a learned skill.