to think that parents contribute to the sleep issues?

[ChocolateBiscuitCake]

Disclaimer: I have two DC who have not always been brilliant sleepers and go through patches of wakefullness at night/early in the morning (!) but...

I have been reading some of the sleep threads and am really surprised by the number of people who have older babies or toddlers who sleep SO badly whilst claiming that they don't know how to improve the situation and won't do any form of CC.

From my experiences, babies have to learn how to sleep well and they do this by you setting up routines and helping them along the way. If you feed your 12 month old milk in the middle of the night, they will keep waking for milk in the night. If you bring them into your bed, they will want to be in your bed. If you have to lie down and hold their hand, they will expect you to be there holding their hand if they wake up.

Nothing changes overnight and teaching your baby/child to sleep well takes patience and consistency. But leaving a baby to cry for 5 minutes is not going to hurt it and ignoring a toddler whilst you drag them back to bed and not give into their ridiculous demands is not difficult. We are the adults!

AIBU to think that some parents need to be a bit tougher rather than find some miracle cure for poor sleep habits?

chocolatr posters on here have repeatedly said that despite following the rules with cc, it took alot longer than a week, one mum said it took 6-8wks and then you have to do it all over again after they have been ill/teething, that imo is cruel to a baby or young child.

you can have a routine and still comfort your child and not have to leave them to cry, we always had a consistent bedtime routine, they just slept in our bed rather than a cot, when they were ready they happily moved to their own bed and their own room with NO tears, much better for them and us.

I have no problem with attachment parenting at all, but then if you choose it don't moan when the child gets to 3-4, having been used to i.e. having the motion of a sling all day and the child won't self settle in his/ her own bed. Unfortunately when thse methods are used for settling to sleep then the motion is a sleep cue and without it the child finds it difficult to drop off. Many children like this are the ones that eventually fall asleep exhausted on the sofa in the afternoon. This then perpetuates the cycle that they then can't sleep at night.

I decided to bf on demand. It was exhausting and at times painful. I moaned about a few times. Should I have kept my mouth shut then? Didni lose the right to be tired grumpy and disheartened at times?

OP YANBU, I know there are some babies and children out there who just won't sleep but most of the kids I know with sleep diffs are at least partly as a result of parenting.

I'm getting a bit sick of going "oh it's just luck" when people ask me how i got 2 such good sleepers. I say it so as not to upset people in RL. When people ask DH he says "All I know is xxxx(me) did something when they were little, I have no idea what it was and they're great sleepers".

And so far they are (5 and 2). And my God did i graft at it, from a few months in I did numerous interventions to encourage good sleep habits, ie self settling, sleeping through. I was determined that both of them would be put down awake and drop off to sleep from a few months old, and once they were weaned would only wake if something was wrong (pain, nightmare etc.). Encouraging good sleep habits is tough and hard work but you reap the rewards if you put the effort in. Sleep deprivation wrecks families and relationships, which is why I was so determined. Call me smug if you like, I don't care.

SurprisEs why you would think that, it is very different when you are bf a young baby, but perfectly acceptable to expect more sleep i.e. one night bf at 9-12months. I agree that night breast feeds are crucial for supply. However, considering that only 25% of babies are breastfed at 6 weeks at most and by 9 months perhaps 5% of the ones who started, most of the non-sleeping children I know could be taught to sleep. I breastfed, as did lots of my friends who also had routine.

It baffles me that people judge others when they found things easier than they did.

Ds is 22 months and has been sleeping pretty well for the last 8 months or so but it was difficult and highly erratic before that. Looking back, I can see some of the mistakes we made but also that we underestimated the impact of early feeding issues which I think made him genuinely quite panicky if his food supply was not available. It took a long time to work out, we worked it out by trial and error, it is fine now and I am glad and hopeful we have learned some lessons for next time.

Why judge others? We have possibly the best self-feeder in the world ever at the moment. He has been using cups and cutlery independently from about 16 months, he has an amazing appetite and eats a wide range of foods. But it is all half-chance. We are all good at some things, not at others and good at some things some times and not at others. Sleep wasn't my forte, I was better with food. And it could all change tomorrow or when I have a new baby, when he could decide never to touch a vegetable again. No need for smugness.

Lack of sleep doesn't benefit anyone, breastfeeding does I also find lots of mums who say the baby isn't interested in solids but yet the baby is feeding several times per night at 9mths, is it then any wonder they aren't hungry for solid food, when chewing solids is necessary for speech development to strengthen the muscles i.e. tongue. Anyway that is a different thread altogether!

Working it isn't smugness, it is an opinion and what I see loads. You have said you made mistakes and have learned for next time.

So what would you not do again?

My post was to state the fact that sleep is the one thing a lot of people apply a one size fits all attitude unlike other parenting issues. The fact I didnt do it the so called right way doesn't meen I can't complain if at times I feel deflated.

AnxiousElephant, the main thing I will not do next time is worry endlessly about what is happening. That led us to chop and change perfectly good strategies because we were afraid we were "doing it wrong" and we confused our son by changing things too much/listening to too much conflicting advice.

I think there are often intrinsic factors too, and when people make judgements on how people are managing, they are often unaware of the full history and factors involved. My son was really underweight until 7 months, this led to him feeding very frequently and had positive and negative effects. I can see in retrospect how it accounts for why he woke for frequent feeding, and also also that it accounts for his amazing attitude to food once weaning! I did my best but first-time breastfeeding didn't quite work so well for me, even with oodles of help and perseverence. I didn't realise it was going as badly as it was until after he weaned, when he shot within months from the 2nd centile to the 70th. I had been told that he was doing fine. The mite was starving. Not very conducive to sleep! We didn't realise but it had created a dynamic where he needed to feed two hourly (which was what I was advised by the lactation consultant), which determined my supply. He was also quite panicky when he woke hungry, even though I was there.

No doubt people at playgroup thought I "gave in" too much to this feeding schedule but they weren't any wiser about his needs than I was.

So when you say "and what I see loads", do you know everything going on in that household? What that baby does in the middle of the night? What emotional factors are involved? What history there may be that colours a parents' need to respond to their child in a certain way? I think it is unwise, if not smug, for anyone to think that the answer to any parenting question is straightforward to outsiders.

Clearly, there is a combination of character of the child and involvement of parents which together contribute to either a good or a bad sleeper.

But really, I fail to see why it is held in such competitive high esteem by some parents. As if the point of a having a baby is to see how quickly you can get them to sleep.

As I said, DS1 is a terrible sleeper and is now 6. Ever since he was very small, once he was asleep he hardly ever woke in the night but it is getting him to sleep that's the problem.

But why be so judgemental either way. I have a friend who's children are both great sleepers but barely eat anything but toast, others who have 5 year old children who sleep 13 hours a night but the children are as dull as ditchwater.

Yes, we all get things wrong in our children's lives, and we all muddle through doing what feels wrong. I just hope that you receive such sanctimonious crowing when you find your weak spot.

sorry, that should be 'doing what feels right' obviously

Yes I do know what goes on because it is my job to ask! If there isn't significant weight gain 2 hourly is the maximum that babies should go between feeds in order to improve supplyand gain weight, it is not usually advised to feed 2 hourly, just at least that iyswim. That is to reduce the notion that 3-4 hourly schedules are not normal for babies.
I haven't ever advocated getting babies to do cc younger than 5 months because breastfeeding is the main source of food before 6 mths if people follow the guidelines and therefore night feeding is necessary for nutrition. By 7 months most babies are starting to finger feed solids and should take less milk, usually at night, because if they don't decrease the milk they are taking too many calories to be interested in food during the day. Therefore, at 9 months when most babies would have 3 meals and breastfeeds in the day there is no nutritional need to feed all night, one feed is fine.

I am not making a judgement on bf or on co sleeping. Each to their own and whilst ds2 hacked up his lungs with persistent reflux coughing, he frequently slept in my bed. I know parenting isn't easy and even if it doesn't come accros that way, I am far from smug.

The first 6 months of motherhood are tough and how well a baby sleeps can be all consuming. Bf on demand must be exhausting as is patiently implementing sleep routines etc. Each to their own etc, etc.

I am saying that parents can contribute to sleep problems in older babies and children. On sleep threads there are lots of comments of 12 month + olds still waking for milk feeds in the night, for example. Some parents clearly don't have an issue with this and that is fine. Others do, and the reality is you either need to stop giving the milk or ride it out till the child grows out of it. Lots of mums want their 'sleep back tomorrow' in which case it is fair to say that as most 12 months + old don't need the milk nutritionally, if they want their sleep back they need to stop giving it. Children will protest at change and therefore will cry. The same applies when parents are lying on the floor holding their child's hand. If you are at your wits end doing it, then stop. Your child will protest at the change and cry.

Children cry - if my 3 year old wants chocolate before tea time I say NO and he cries in protest. Just because he cries, I don't give it to him.

He has 2 stories before bed. He sometimes wants more. I say NO, he protests and cries. I ignore him and he goes stops 30 seconds later....

The list goes on. There is no one size fits all to parenting BUT but in many cases, it is about saying NO, as some other wise poster has said, sticking to your guns and seeing something through.

I'm also not implying that all parents feel not sleeping is a problem, just that most of the time when it becomes a problem and they ask for help, you can see that they have been parented in a more attachment style.

Well put choc

AnxiousElephant, that recommendation came from a) a lactation consultant at a teaching hospital and was backed up by b) a consultant in that teaching hospital.

What is your job?

If you are a health professional and think that because you have done a case history that gives you access to people's most private internal thoughts and the factors that truly motivate them, then sorry, but you are absolutely clueless. I am a health professional myself, but we only get a very minor snapshot of humanity in our jobs which are often very segmented and specialised approaches to complex human experiences.

I managed to get through my entire pregnancy without ever telling one medical professional that I was suffering severe postnatal anxiety with some OCD symptoms, largely because I am a health professional and I didn't want anyone to know so they didn't. No one ever copped it. Not once. No one ever copped that I had PND either. These things undoubtedly also impacted upon those early days when I woke up sweating and cold and prodding my baby and having moments where I believed he was dead.

Being a professional gives you some insight, I'm sure, as some people will be open. But not all. How much time do you spend with families to say that you know all the factors that influence sleeping in their house and what their babies need?

Particularly, why people choose certain parenting styles? Are you aware of their own personal history? What parenting they had? What their deep fears about being parents may be? What psychological factors motivate their choices?

No doubt you would have seen a sling in my house and ticked your "attachment parenting" + "bad sleeper" boxes. Be wary that prejudging on the basis of parenting style may prevent you from hearing more important information.

Because surely when people ask for help they generally choose to share information that is important and relevant? You chose not to seek help for your anxiety so didn't share this information. If you are not open, how can you expect help?

This thread is not about the early days of parenting and the related sleep issues.

totally agree with your posts working

there are many reasons why a child may be going through a stage where they are not sleeping well and they have a right to moan no matter what routines etc they have choosen because we all try to do out best

I didn't expect help for my anxiety, that was not my point. Actually, I never asked for help and some people do.. but it is somewhat irrelevant to my point. Like the good Dr. House the first rule of working with people as a health professional is that people lie. They tell the story that they want to tell, they don't do it purposefully, they tell the story that matches what they want to believe about themselves and what they think you want to hear. This is particularly true if you have, say, a ten minute appointment. People do what they can do and often they don't know why some things aren't working for them just because they know they need help. This is true for nearly every issue that a human being seeks helps with.

The factors that make it hard for one parent to walk away from a crying baby while another one finds it easy are really, really deep and probably as individual as people themselves. I think it is unhelpful to hear that health professionals are making prejudgments based on differing parent choices that are, in the main, perfectly healthy and normal choices to make. Telling someone who wants to be an attachmenty type person that they should just get on with cc is pretty disrespectful to the culture of that family I think, and of the range and diversity of human experience.

Incidentally, I just told my GP about my anxiety in my last pregnancy as I am now 6 weeks pregnant again. Helpfully, she a) didn't respond and b) chose to take my pulse immediately after this and has referred me to have an ECG because my heart rate was erratic while I gave her this information . I have no history that suggests a thyroid problem and my pulse is generally fine. Sometimes even when you are giving people information they choose not to hear and to misinterpret the evidence in front of them because they are looking for something that suits their analysis.

quelle surprise. 13 pages about sleep, when it really is as simple as put your baby in it's cot and let it go to sleep. Obv feed it when hungry and calpol as needed, but apart from that let the poor thing sleep.

I actually don't give a flying fuck what anyone thinks about my DD's sleep. She goes to sleep on her own (most of the time) but wakes in the middle of the night and comes in to our bed. You know what...I love having her in bed with us, and seeing her little happy morning face is a joy. Giving her milk in the middle of the night when she needs it is no problem for me or DH.

Do you care that I think putting a new born in their own room and expecting them to sleep all night is a crappy thing to do? No? Well thats fine then, lets all do our own things with our children and get on with our lives.

As one of the people posting on a sleep board, OP, it's not so much that I think you are being unreasonable as unnecessary with your view. The whole reason I post on Mumsnet sleep boards is to ask for help with sleep issues, not for someone to suggest I am not disciplined or competent enough when I say that I'm struggling and ask for help.

After all, you have no experience of my child, nor me of yours. I have a young toddler that does not generally throw tantrums, eats everything and is very happy and sociable (for the moment!). So I am clueless as to how stressful and difficult it must be to have a tantrum-wielding, food-refusing child. I think I worked very very hard to encourage my child to eat well/display good behaviour etc, but maybe he was always predisposed to do so. Perhaps it is not at all me but actually just him. What help would it be for me to think: "Oh but I did it, so other parents should be as good as me at getting their child to eat/behave" when I have no clue what is going on. I just think to myself that all kids are different.

Of course it is possible that some of my son's sleep issues are likely to be my fault because some of the common approaches to helping him sleep haven't worked so maybe I haven't yet found the best way to help him settle.

So no, OP, it's fine to think that people's kids not sleeping is sometimes down to parents not getting it right. I just think that since your kids sleep so well, you should take advantage and be having fun rather than reading threads on the sleep board from tired, desperate people like me.