to get angry when parents use my daughter to teach their child sorry?

[W6mum]

My DD is 2 but has recently suffered a spate of being attacked by other children in playgrounds - typically little boys coming up to her and punching her in the face, kicking her in the shins or something similar. So there she is, crying her eyes out, and seeking my protection when owner parent of hooligan child comes up with child (usually child sporting evil and totally unremorseful grin) saying, rather weakly 'now come on, you must say sorry to the little girl'. (for godsake, at least say it like you mean it?!)
Meanwhile, my daughter has to face this little shit again, and I feel like serving some of that rough justice to this child I would have been served when younger, while also being fearful of raising my voice in case it comes back on me

My DD is 2 but has recently suffered a spate of being attacked by other children in playgrounds - typically little boys coming up to her and punching her in the face, kicking her in the shins or something similar

Again sorry - I've yet to see a child in a playground randomly approached and beaten and kicked for just being there.

Pushing, shoving, yues ...random closed fist assaults , never.

Have one of these from a parent of a boy who isn't kind to other children no matter what we do. But we do make him apologise although he doesn't want to and we do punish him for bad behaviour towards other children. One day my ds may learn. Your tone is really horrible. I only hope when your child is a bit older and misbehaving that you look back on this thread with some shame.

Ah but it's Hammersmith people. Virtually inner city innit. They start punching at 2yo and before you know it they're carrying flick knives at 4.5yo, running gangs at 6yo and people smuggling and running drug cartels by 10yo.

OP - If YOUR DD did this, pushing / slapping / punching / biting (all normal toddler and pre-school behaviours IMO - but ones that need teaching are unacceptable) to, say, a 16mo baby (therefore younger than your DD, but still a tiny tot) - what would YOUR reaction be?

Would you just walk away from the baby and it's mother without saying anything or getting your DD to say sorry? What would you do if YOUR DD refused to apologise in good grace about something she shouldn't have done (say snatching a toy at todler group?)

And, I have to say - where the fuck are you taking your DD to play if 3-4yo's are punching your DD? Because I have been a mother for over 13 years - and have lived on some VERY rough estates in Essex - and have NEVER seen a child of 3-4yo able to do a 'proper' punch? A shove, a push, to get on the equipment when over-exuberant (and girls can and ARE just as much like boys - at least some of them - I am the proud mother of one girl and 3 boys, so have seen both sides of the coin so to speak) but NEVER in 13 years, a full-on punch.

So, OP - what would be YOUR response if the tables were turned, and your DD was the agressor, and refusing to give a heart-felt apology (which BTW, most 3-4yo's wouldn't fully understand that what they are being made to apologise for is WRONG - they are just learning).

Well at least they attempted (even half heartedly) to apologise. My daughter had her hair pulled & her head shaken from side to side by a kid about a yr older than her. She also slapped my daughter around the head for good measure.

Her mum came over with her & said that as my dd had gone off to play again, there was no point in apologising as she had obviously forgotten about it already. I told her that I didn't want her daughter anywhere nr mine & to stay away from her. Dd was 2 at the time, we were waiting for her sister to finish school. I had 2 parents ask how dd was & say that their kids were also at the wrong end of this child, so I reported her to the school & mum was told to either not bring her in again, (she wasn't old enough to be a pupil there yet) or to keep her away from other kids.

Teaching kids to stay sorry is important.

troisgarcons

It happens! My dd did nothing to instigate what happened to her, she was sat in the sandpit happily digging, and it was brutal actually. Having her head shaken from side to side by her hair, held in clumps in some kids hands & then slapped around the head several times. Even as I approached she didn't stop hitting her...and her cowardly mother HID from me in a class room...I saw her walking off, so I went after her to show her what her daughter had done.

I hate to think what a 3yr old is exposed to, to inflict that level of violence on a child. And as I said, my daughter was at least the 3rd child. I changed my elders daughter's school not long after that, for lots of reasons, but also because my youngest dd would in class with the little girl who attacked her & there was NO way I was going to put up with that!

differentnameforthis i agree that some children have obviously experienced brutality in a way that makes them replicate it and accept it, but i think most 'playground attacks' are purely due to frustration and lack of communication/social skills due to age.

My friend's daughter was hit by an older boy at softplay.

The boy's mother dealt with him very firmly, and forced an apology out of him. The boy was grinning and sticking his tongue out at his mother the whole time. He did however apologise when told there would be a consequence for not apologising. (I don't know whether there was any consequence for the hitting other than the apology)

My friend's daughter was still crying and and became more distressed when the boy's mother lifted him near to her. The first attempt at apologising ended with the boy slapping my friend's daughter. The second time he was lifted up for an extremely reluctant kiss and hug - his mother said that was his way of apologising. My friend's daughter cowered away, and I think the 2 rounds of trying to get an apology from the boy scared her as much as the hitting.

I do agree that children need to learn to apologise when they have hurt someone, and part of learning can be taken to the injured party and encouraged to apologise. While a forced apology is not truly an apology, it's an opportunity to teach about what it means to be sorry for doing something wrong.

However, I think it would be helpful for the parent to say what the consequence will be for the hitting, e.g. going home, no snack, no TV, etc.

Just my opinion, but, I don't think children should be taught to kiss and hug their apologies to strangers - especially when violence has been involved. Better to actually say sorry, and not make matters worse for the injured party by enforcing physical contact.

Not all small children are verbal. I think the parent should apologize and whatever punishment/sanctions are the parent and child's business and don't need to be shared.

My wee one has been known to bite- doesnt matter how attentive you are, sometimes they move too fast! To me it doesn't sound like you're saying you disagree with apologies, but you do disagree with parents not taking the incident, or the apologizing seriously.I don't think you're being unreasonable at all there. It's highly unlikely, but if my DD should ever happen to randomly punch yours in a playground (I too have never heard of this, but maybes things are done differently in That London) i can promise you that I would take it very seriously indeed, she would be saying sorry, even if she had to learn to talk on the spot in order to do so, and she would suffer privations as a result of her atrocious behaviour for some time to come!

OP, which playground in Hammersmith do you usually go to? We used to live in Hammersmith, too and on our way home would sometimes stop at the little playground by Chancellors Road. We had lots of similar incidents with my daughter. I even got physically assaulted by a group of 7-9 year olds when walking through that park one day - they were trying to grope me and then quickly ride away on their bikes/run away. No wonder we have since moved from that area.
Found that the Brook Green playground is much nicer if.

Your tone is unfortunate (you are angry) but I can see what you are getting at.

As the mum of boys, I get what you are saying about some parents excusing rowdy behaviour, and also about lack of consequences. Personally, I think when mine were this age it was important that I apologised for my DCs in a heartfelt way, and then disciplined my child appropriately. Sometimes an apology from a small child, without other sanctions is completely meaningless (I'm talking 3 year olds here)

OTOH, My DS2 was a biter and I get what Jareth is saying - most of us are completely mortified if our boys are violent.

Otoh (again) - IME, the sort of parents who say "boys will be boys" are not the sort who get their child to apologise .......

SurprisEs oh yes, I do understand that...it's what toddlers do. Last week she was hit at child care & they reported it to me, and it isn't a big deal, but in this case, it was SO much more than that. I know that not all playground spats are borne of seeing violence :)

YABU
Firstly, unless these children are much older than your daughter I find it extremely difficult to believe that they are actually punching her. If she is actually on the receiving end of this level of regular, deliberate violence then you need to find somewhere else to take her as it simply isn't fair to expose her to this sort of thing. If you are in W6 then there will be other places you can go - there isn't only one playground.

Secondly, YABVU for your sweeping generalisation that "boys tend to get away with things". Not in my world they don't.

Thirdly, learning to apologise for wrong-doing is a part of a child's social development - as is learning to accept an apology. Small children aren't fully socialised - they will smirk and be reluctant and seem not to care - all the more reason for their carer to persist. People have different views on apologising - when it should start, when it can be understood, whether it should be enforced etc. My personal view approach has been to encourage an apology from a very early age on the basis that the action comes first, becomes habit and the understanding comes gradually. It seems to have worked - DS started off with the word "sorry", started adding a hug, and now will generally offer a spontaneous apology, sometimes with a hug, if he does something he knows is wrong. If he has taken a toy for example, he will also often offer it back with a verbal "sorry". I know he isn't simply parroting learned behaviour without understanding as we do sometimes have incidents where he won't apologise for wrong-doing and says "not sorry", usually in mid-tantrum. He sometimes also gets himself out of a persistent tantrum and comes and finds us to say sorry.

It is up to you how to protect your child, but it might be worth thinking about how these apologies are part of her own development, as well as that of the other child.

Why isn't another playground an option?

I disagree with the 'saying sorry is pointless if they don't mean it' position. Children get to learn what is considered acceptable social behaviour this way. It would be nice if they meant it but that can be worked on. If they are made to apologise either way, then at least there is some sense for them that their actions have consequences - even if you think those consequences should be more severe.

kungfupannda excellent post.

is it terrible that if my 2 year old was being attacked so often i'd be teaching her to hit back?

Yes.

Actually at age 2 the children won't necessarily fully understand the concept of being sorry and their parents seem to be trying to teach them.

It's a shame that your daughter seems to be on ther receiving end and hopefully this will stop.]

What I found really useful when teaching my Ds about being sorry was to explain ( after any incident where sorry was required) that sorry means that you won't do it again. As he got a little older, if he said sorry I would ask him what that meant............and he'd tell me about not doing it again. Won't work for everyone but did for us. Had a lkovely 6 yr old who knows what sorry is, when he needs to use it and is genuine about it.

Many parents just demand that children apoligise without explaining to them, in a way they understand exactly what it means.

I agree that learning to say sorry is part of child's development - as so many have pointed out - however to learn they have to believe that the teacher is serious and there are consequences to not learning, be it removal from the playground, withdrawal of a treat / favourite toy etc.

In the meantime, there's no way I'm letting another kid hug my child after slapping it in the face. As adults we don't systematically kiss and hug for sorry - often we say sorry and give the other person the time and space to 'lick their wounds'

HuntyCatInaWitchyHat - And no, I haven't yet seen a 4 yr old punch with a Mike Tyson style right hook and stance but my DD has been '4yr-old' punched and kicked in the face

"sometimes boys seem to get away with it more because 'they're hyper active little boys you know - what can we do'"

You have just one child do you? a girl? Because that's the only reason I can think that you would write such stereotypical generalised nonsense.

If my child was being punched and kicked that often I would not be taking them back to the same place.

SoupDragon - It's ironic that you use a blatant generalisation to critique mine and diminish my perspective - that I must think this because I am the mother of a girl, maybe my head if full of frills and barbies or something? This 'stereotype', rightly or wrongly, is what parents of boys (yes more than one) have said to me... it's their generalisation, which I think doesn't give credit to the learning little boys need to and can do, and excuses their inaction.

And as I said - it's a spate (clearly a highly unusual one given some of the reactions from people who have never seen a child hit another child hard), and it's the manner apologies are being handled. So no, I'm not taking my child elsewhere, but thank you to all posters for giving me a couple more ideas about how to handle hitting child, and associated parent, and indeed my own DD if she turns into a punchy / hitty / kicky child in the future

It was a question, not a generalisation.