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AIBU?

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Original poster

Faith Schools - state funding

182 replies

pearlym · 25/09/2011 12:06

am I being unreasonable to think that it is unfair that faith schools get 85% plus funding frmo the state but that they are effectively closed to children not of their faith?

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 26/09/2011 12:02

The church may own the buildings

that of itself raises the question, how the CofE comes to be such a massive land/property owner - surely because it has had centuries of effectively taxing the populace, or was gifted lands by the state (or appropriated such assets during reformation).

minko · 26/09/2011 12:03

Where we used to live the Catholic school was completely oversubscribed as the alternatives were not so good. Everyone was turning Catholic and getting their kids baptised. So they had to change the admission critieria to regular attendance at church. So then it became if you didn't attend 4 Sundays a month you didn't get a space. Then extra kids starting creeping in on appeal saying they had no way of judging who attended the most regularly. So now you have to sign in at church! Bleedin' ridiculous - at a state funded school!

Kladdkaka · 26/09/2011 12:09

Gnome I don't think so. They'd be laughing all the way to bank. How much do you think that amount of non-greenbelt land in a prime location would be worth to a property developer?

idlingabout · 26/09/2011 12:29

It is the disproportionate effect on other local schools which I find the most unfair. Our nearest town has a CofE secondary (lets call it BL) which after years of back door selection has the best results in the county. It is full of kids from families who started going to church just to get them in and once in have no further church involvement. It has a culture of thinking itself superior - evidenced by my dd reporting that her friend who has just started at said school has happily pointed out that dds school is the chavs school. What she is reflecting is the smugness of all the families with kids attending BL as they know their school does not have its fair share of disruptive kids from dissaffected families. These families are disproportionately allocated to the other local schools. I know not all people on free school meals are disaffected/uninterested in education but it is a good indicator when looking for evidence as to how BL school is a middle class enclave. BLs percentage of kids on fsm is less than one quarter of that at other local schools.

Countingwiththecount · 26/09/2011 12:53

Absolutely unreasonable of the government. The system is manipulated too. I knew so many people in the UK who attended church for years (I'm talking 10+) just to get the letter of recommendation from their vicar when their child was transitioning to secondary.

Even worse, I'm in Australia now and for profit private schools (some of religious affiliation, some without) receive state funding, so unless you have the extra $ to afford a private education for your child, you cannot access state funding based on your income. Shocking.

onagar · 26/09/2011 13:02

It's very wrong and should be stopped.

As for the stuff about being able to afford to stop this practice that is arguable, but beside the point anyway. If you decide that it's not in the best interest of the children then you'd bring it to an end as quickly as you could afford.

Kladdkaka · 26/09/2011 13:02

Idlingabout I see that as a benefit on other local schools. It was similar where I lived. The Catholic school had the best results in the area and the highest number of 4X4s blocking up the street. My daughter got a place having been baptised as a baby. It was horrendous. A cesspit of middle class snobbery. She was so unhappy. I ended up taking her out and putting her in an average school in the middle of the big council estate. She was so much happier being amongst normal people. So please let's keep them all corralled in one place so the rest of us don't have to deal with them, especially first thing in the morning.

GnomeDePlume · 26/09/2011 13:08

Kladdkaka given that I doubt local authorities would grant wholesale 'change of use' then probably not as much as you imagine! I'm afraid I have a cynical view of all religious orders and would assume that if they thought they could make more money by selling off the land then they would have already done so.

alemci · 26/09/2011 16:40

I think the schools should be kept. My DC don't go to the local C of E school but it is a good school. I think you may find that some of the parents make a contribution towards the school.

It is an Anglican school and it did cause resentment when it would not take people from other churches who were practising christians but did not want to attend an Anglican church but this situation has improved with some of the children now getting in.

As I have stated before this is traditionally a christian country like it or not and the churches/monastries founded some of our universities and grammar schools in the past. It is part of our heritage.

Christians are tax payers too. Also I am sure that if some of the people from less affluent backgrounds attend an Anglican church and do get a place in the school as the catchment area is quite vast. I remember children attending from the far end of the borough and had a long journey. Their parents were not wealthy but just wanted a christian education for their children.

I believe this school also takes other faiths as well.

we do have good schools in our area anyway but my DC go out of the borough

babybarrister · 26/09/2011 17:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

frutilla · 26/09/2011 17:17

It's disgusting. I want to return to UK but all the good schools near my old home are Catholic or C of E and therefore not applicable for my kids. Some of them ask for a letter from the church re. your attendance! Yes they take a couple of other kids for legal reasons but not enough to make it likely to get in....

minipie · 26/09/2011 17:23

YANBU OP. It is discrimination on religious grounds and should be illegal. Instead it seems to be a central part of our state school system Confused.

alemci

Yes the parents may make a (small) contribution towards the school. But most of the funding comes from the state. If the parents want to fund the school entirely and make it a private school, fine. But as long as there is state funding it should not be used to favour one religion over others (or over no religion).

Yes this is traditionally a Christian country. But that doesn't mean it's right for the state to discriminate in favour of Christians. What if Christians were given priority for getting state jobs? Or for getting state benefits?

Yes Christians are tax payers too. But they do not pay more tax than non Christians. So why should they get preferential treatment?

In our area, good schools are massively oversubscribed. 2 of the 4 good primary schools are Christian and will only take those who regularly attend the local affiliated church. Others don't get a look in - not even those who attend a different church, never mind someone of a different or of no religion! So Christian parents and children are given a large and unfair advantage over others - simply because of their religion. I cannot understand why anyone would think this is ok.

kat2504 · 26/09/2011 17:23

The percentage of regular churchgoers is massively lower than the percentage of state schools run by the church. I don't believe in faith schools anyway, but since we have so many of them, they should serve their local community in a more inclusive way. I really don't understand why discrimination is allowed in a state institution.

GrimmaTheNome · 26/09/2011 17:34

'Free schools' are opening the doors to some decidedly non-mainstream groups. For instance,The Christian Brethren

MothershipG · 26/09/2011 18:08

Minipie I think that you have summarised the problem brilliantly!

I live in West London and because my DS's parents happen to be atheists he had no choice of High School. His friend next door, whose Mum is RC, had the choice of about 5 schools (although he didn't get into the same one as his brother because he hadn't been baptised before he was 6 months old!)

We both pay the same amount of tax but it's ok for my DS to have less choices? How can anyone think that is a fair system????

hocuspontas · 26/09/2011 18:53

Free schools - grrr. So these bible-bashers have an independent school that is running at a loss. They apply to the government to give them tons of money to re-open as a 'free school'. All the students that are currently there are paying, Are they just going to get a free education when the school becomes a free school? Or are they all going to be kicked out so the admissions can be 'fair'? I'd love to know.

hocuspontas · 26/09/2011 18:54

Sorry - gone off the point a bit there! Faith school rant turned into free school rant.

GrimmaTheNome · 26/09/2011 19:12

hocus - it will be interesting to see what happens in that particular case, because they say ?Everyone is welcome to study here as long as they respect the school's ethos. It's just like any other Roman Catholic school or Jewish school.
"We just ask people respect our ways of running things."

But - I may be wrong about this - part of their 'ethos' seems to be educating their kids separately.

breadandbutterfly · 26/09/2011 19:13

2 of my kids got to faith schools and I think you have the cart before the horse.

Faith schools are good BECAUSE they're faith schools. Being faith schools allows them to teach kids about...ermmm...faith. Which is about positive values, respecting authority, importance of education etc. It is this factor that makes them good. If they stopped being faith schools ie preaching their faith and taking kids from families with the same values, they would stop being good (or better than average) and just be like any other school.

So it's a bit silly to say they ought to be open to anyone - those who don't share that faith BUT still want their kids to go there are missing the point that it is precisely their exclusiveness in terms of faith which makes them good schools.

I chose my dcs school precisely because I wanted them brought up in my faith. I don't see why their secular education should not be paid for by the state - anything faith-related is NOT paid for by the state, but by a v hefty monthly contribution, BTW.

breadandbutterfly · 26/09/2011 19:20

It reminds me rather of the Graucho Marx quote about only wanting to be part of a club that didn't want him as a member. Grin

kat2504 · 26/09/2011 19:22

What, non-faith people don't have positive values, don't respect authority and don't value education? How is that?
Also if they only pick people who already have that faith surely they are preaching to the converted and ought to branch out a little?
I am actually offended at the idea that those of us who teach in non-faith schools are not trying to impart positive values to our pupils.

GrimmaTheNome · 26/09/2011 19:26

Which is about positive values, respecting authority, importance of education etc

No, that's the ethos of most schools.

'Faith' is about trusting in a supernatural being.

minipie · 26/09/2011 19:34

Oh come on breadandbutterfly. Non religious people also believe in respecting authority and in the importance of education. And non religious schools also teach these values. These values are not exclusive to religion.

LizzieBusy · 26/09/2011 19:34

In that case then schools should not discriminate because of where you live re catchment are. Just because I'm not a hedge fund manager and cant afford a house a quarter of a mile away, I think the system is discriminating against me so those schools shouldnt get funding - blah blah blah.
I see those who are super tolerant of all walks of life are out in force.

it always makes me laugh, those who are anti faith are often teh least tolerant of others views

kat2504 · 26/09/2011 19:48

I am tolerant of others views and am not anti religion despite not being religious myself. But I don't think it's fair that in certain areas, a child's educational chances are determined by whether or not their parents attend church weekly. Yes, the fact that house prices are also ridiculous around good school is also a bit of a nightmare for admissions, you are not wrong there, it does help in creating "nice" schools and "sink" schools too. I am not sure what the ideal solution is. But I am sure that in any other area of life, discrimination on the basis of religious belief is not legal in this country.
Perhaps in larger towns where there is more choice of schools nearby there should be a system that ensures a better social mix of pupils in each school. I don't know how that would work.

Faith schools are not simply good because they are faith schools. If you are allowed to partake in white middle class selection then your school won't have to deal with so many problems related to social deprivation and you will have more time for teaching. Also, due to the covert selection you will get better results. If the parents can be arsed to pretend to be interested in church for years, they are definitely interested in education and will be supportive.

A school with the sort of values that a faith ought to uphold would have a bit more time for helping the kids in the social deprivation and whose parents don't value education so much rather than excluding them and only wanting easier kids.