Faith Schools - state funding

[pearlym]

am I being unreasonable to think that it is unfair that faith schools get 85% plus funding frmo the state but that they are effectively closed to children not of their faith?

I think he time has passed for faith schools within the state system so I am in full agreement with you.

Just for some context though, I live in a very built up large town with a high birth rate. The town has one CofE primary and we happen to live in the catchment so my children went there. In the past 7 years there have been an average of 2 children per year (in 3 form entry) admitted under the criteria of church attendance, the rest are siblings and catchment of other faiths and none. I have also been a church treasurer so written cheques towards the running of the school that our rather poor church cannot afford. I'd be very glad for the church to be free of those costs.

I have no issue with faith schools but can see from what some have said how they can be seen as unfair. Maybe it is time to have totally secular schools.

I think we should do away with faith/grammar/selective state schools. If people want something 'different' then they should pay for it.

well every other faith does have to pay for it? if you want to send your child to a muslim/jewish/sikh school youhave to pay for it.

but how is dividing education by income better then dividing by faith?

No faith schools is all very idealistic but how would we {the state] afford it? We would have to find the 15% as well as extra money for the actual land/property/building a lot of the schools are in as a huge amount are owned by the Church etc.

The last administration permitted the setting up of new faith schools, including non-Christian, as does this one (3 Hindu schools this September).

With both major parties committed to the continuation and expansion in numbers of faith schools, I think we're a long way from this being policy. Not to mention what I said before - the Government will have to buy up those schools on land or in premises owned by the churches. I really think we have higher priority demands on the public purse at present.

I'm inclined to agree meditrina.

I'd settle for no new ones being established & a requirement that the existing ones apply exactly the same admission criteria as all other state funded schools - no preferential admission whatsoever for 'bums on pews'.

nailak - TBH if I were in charge of things there would be no private schools either

CofE has been discussing a policy of no more than 10% faith places at its schools (some of course already are at this level, and all their newer academies are fully community entrance criteria). I doubt that'll be implemented any time soon - but it sets the challenge.

Before you all go off critising faith schools, consider how much they are saving the taxpayer. Faith schools have no obligation to keep their doors open. There is nothing to stop them saying 'we no longer wish to have a school here'. Get too restrictive on them and their reasons for existing and you'll end up with them being shut and the state (ie you) having to make alternative provision. Do you know how much this initial investment would cost you?

Approximately £174,300,000,000.00 (ie £174 billion)

So how do those of you who oppose faith school propose paying for it?

How do you get that figure?

"I'd settle for no new ones being established & a requirement that the existing ones apply exactly the same admission criteria as all other state funded schools - no preferential admission whatsoever for 'bums on pews'."

Fair enough if the state took over 100% of the funding and purchased the buildings and land off the church. Its actual real, living people in a lot of cases who have spent years raising money to build faith schools, not some mill owner or aristocrat 150 years ago. The state can't just commandeer them for free.

Just a rough calculation based purely on the land necessary.

Approximately 7000 faith schools in the UK
An average school needs 25 acres of land
Land with development rights is currently selling for £996,000 an acre in the middle of England.

25 acres each?? Is this for secondary schools? Our 3 local church primary schools have four classrooms, a hall and playground and rent a field from local farmers. On the open market each of them would get no more than a million each for redevelopment. And in their cases I'm sure the LA would step in with a reasonable bid.

They are not closed to children not of that faith-generally they are the only school in rural areas and open to all.
I would agree that it is fine if the state buys the land and buildings-they can hardly just take them.

25 acres each?? Is this for secondary schools?

It varies depending on the age range of the children and the number of children. There's a massive chart in one of my construction text books on how to calculate the size needed. I just picked one in the middle.

As I say, it's a rough calculation with the intention of making people think about the implications. I suspect that are lot of people are assuming the state will just acquire the existing school sites without having to pay the owners for it, Mugabe style.

One of my bugbears regarding faith schools is that, in rural areas, they are often the only school in the village. Yes they accept all of the children from the village, but it is crap if you don't want your child to go to a school that has a faith agenda and places on the governing body reserved for people from the church. I know this isn't as frustrating as having to bus your child to a sink school on the other side of London because the local schools are all faith based, but it still hacks me off. Yes my child is white and has English as a first language, but that doesn't mean she is a Christian, which seem to be a common assumption in rural areas. And I do know that all schools are meant to have a Christian act of worship, but I don't really want her to go to one that is any more Christian than the tokenism that occurs in most non-faith schools.

There are lots of things I'd prefer my tax didnt pay towards but not schools. Faith schools tend to perform well, save the government money and produce well rounded children. In rural areas, it means many children can go to a local school that might not be available otherwise.

Well if the day ever came, who knows what sort of anarchy would prevail?

Happy - local schools would exist whether they are faith based or not. Some areas have a lot of them and some have fewer. Every village in our area has a school and the majority are not CofE, but a few are.

'Fair enough if the state took over 100% of the funding and purchased the buildings and land off the church'

That could be an option, if the church didn't want to have the continued responsibility.

But being selflessly dedicated to the service of all the children in their local comunity, I'm sure most faith schools would be delighted to spread their excellence to a catchment of every child who applied & lived near the school - so no reason why they couldn't carry on doing exactly what they do.

Unless, of course, that excellence is largely dependent on cherry-picking students from compliant, committed families...

nailak Sun 25-Sep-11 18:12:30
well every other faith does have to pay for it? if you want to send your child to a muslim/jewish/sikh school youhave to pay for it.

but how is dividing education by income better then dividing by faith?

nailak that is untrue. There are state funded muslim, jewish, hindu and other schools

www.education.gov.uk/aboutdfe/foi/disclosuresaboutschools/a0065446/maintained-faith-schools

State School
Religious Character Number %
Christian 32 0.16
Church of England (C of E) 4598 22.88
C of E/Christian 1 0.01
C of E/Free Church 1 0.01
C of E/Methodist 33 0.16
C of E/Methodist/United Reform Church/Baptist 1 0.01
C of E/RC 10 0.05
Greek Orthodox 1 0.01
Hindu 1 0.01
Jewish 38 0.19
Methodist 26 0.13
Methodist/C of E 3 0.01
Muslim 11 0.05
Quaker 1 0.01
Roman Catholic 2010 10
RC/C of E 10 0.05
Seventh Day Adventist 1 0.01
Sikh 4 0.02
United Reformed Church 1 0.01

ravenAK it's not as simple as that. The Catholic school near where I used live was trusted to the parish for the express purpose of educating the Catholic children of the parish. The church does not have the power to overrule this. If they do, the land reverts back to its original owner and the school is no more.

Even the most deliberately naive of us know that people aren't going to raise millions of pounds to open a school that their children, or children in their community can't access. Does anyone believe that the Hindu community would have bothered raising £2million to build a school that was no different from the existing schools and that their children wouldn't benefit from it?

FWIW anyone can go to my dcs school who applies. There are spaces in every class. It serves the local community. It is in an area of deprivation but still manages to be a good school without cherry picking anyone. In general the MN 'I think you'll find if you want to go to a Catholic school they have to be baptised in utero and you have to arrange flowers for the whole diocese and scrub the bishop's front step whilst leading the choir practice' attitude is a pile of bollocks. The majority of Catholic schools have a significant amount of non Catholics who get in by the simple means of putting the school name on the application form. There is apparently a Catholic school which is 90% muslim. There are faith schools that require a significant amount of hoop jumping but this is generally due to wider problems such as the LA simply not providing enough school places for the amount of children and exists alongside selection through expensive postcode and selection through private tutor.