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David Attenborough joins the campaign against creationism in schools.

428 replies

Peanutbuttertuesday · 20/09/2011 17:27

I've posted before about the issue of religion being taught as fact in schools before. I'd be interested to hear what everyone has to say about this.
Discuss!
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8769353/David-Attenborough-joins-campaign-against-creationism-in-schools.html

OP posts:
Ormirian · 23/09/2011 09:56

I think the reason it raises hackles atm is the rise of the teaching of creationism in US schools (and failure to teach evolution) and on top of that, the start of Free schools in this country. We're worried about fundamentalism - it's mad, scary and just not British dammit!

And the healthy tanned Christian 'yoof' workers on the beach in Wales a few years ago organising games and competitions for all the kids - and then handing out leaflets about Intelligent Design and flyers for a talk on the subject Hmm. It is not an alternative to evolution as an explanation to the way the universe came about - it just isn't. And people are trying to pretend it is. Fine, tell the story along with all the other colourful and fascinating creation myths of the world but don't 'teach' it - there's nothing to teach!

Whatmeworry · 23/09/2011 10:05

You clearly are unable to follow arguments properly whatme. I think the argument is just too complex perhaps for you

Au contraire, I think I've seen through your faux-reasonable tactics and you don't like it. I admire the persisence btw.

kat2504 · 23/09/2011 10:12

I am amused that this is still going on. It really is rather ridiculous now!
coco - please give up. You have no more actual arguments left and have resorted to insulting people's intelligence.
Lets sum up:
We don't want fundamentalists in charge of school curriculum and we don't want to see things that are happening in America come over here.
We are agreed that Creationism and other creation stories are neither facts or scientific theories and should not be presented as such.
We are happy for the origins and cultural/religious issues to be discussed appropriately in schools.
We do not feel that actually having a Creation vs Evolution topic in the science curriculum is worthwhile, as the two are not comparable. This does not prevent Science teachers from answering any questions that pupils may ask them.

I can't see what there is to argue about anymore. Do you disagree with any of the above? This is what people have been saying to you, so if you think these points are reasonable then stop arguing.

Cocoflower · 23/09/2011 10:12

Erm....

You seem to have a lot of energy for imagining what people said
But none for atcually getting to grips with the reality of what is said

ThePosieParker · 23/09/2011 10:15

Coco.

Yesterday I assumed you were tired and over wrought, today I can see that this is just who you are.

Stop insulting people with condescending and patronising posts, ffs. Especially when you get so uppity and drag stuff across threads if you imagine a poster does it to you.

kat2504 · 23/09/2011 10:15

well please tell me what you think people actually said then because as far as I can see, this is what most people who have said similar things to me have expressed. Clearly I am most mistaken and a bit thick and need you to summarise using only little easy words what you think has been said.

ThePosieParker · 23/09/2011 10:16

And Fallen and Madonna are the same poster. Thefallenmadonna.

TheVermiciousKnid · 23/09/2011 10:17

Cocoflower, why don't you just tell us if you agree with Kat's summing up?

Cocoflower · 23/09/2011 10:20

"Stop insulting people with condescending and patronising posts, ffs"

Can you resort to not swearing at me? Can you be mature

oh and who is patronising? "And Fallen and Madonna are the same poster. Thefallenmadonna"

Posie I have seen all along what a nasty piece of work you are.

TheVermiciousKnid · 23/09/2011 10:22

Oh dear. You're really not doing yourselves any favours here, Cocoflower.

Cocoflower · 23/09/2011 10:24

And if someone comes on a post, despite carefully detailed explanations of the argument, and still continues to act out on some paranoid, bizarre conspiracy that I have a "creationsit manual" then I think they need putting straight.

Its not me who wont let it go.. despite the huge amounts of time I have tried to reassure whatme of why people might have a different opinion, they have continued to allow their strange ideas they persist. I imagine the reason is failure to understand what is being said.

ThePosieParker · 23/09/2011 10:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by Mumsnet.

ThePosieParker · 23/09/2011 10:27

You are like this on every board you comment on, I'm starting to doubt your motivations tbh.

Whatmeworry · 23/09/2011 10:28

despite the huge amounts of time I have tried to reassure whatme of why people might have a different opinion, they have continued to allow their strange ideas they persist. I imagine the reason is failure to understand what is being said

Coco - give a straight answer to Kat and I will be delighted.

But watching you at work i think my analysis of your tactics is spot on, so I don't expect you to.

Duck and weave Coco, duck and weave....

Cocoflower · 23/09/2011 10:28

And now we see your true colours coming out.

ThePosieParker · 23/09/2011 10:32

Oh whatever Coco.

Perhaps read through the thread and see your own posts and see yourself.

As said in Matthew.
Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults? unless, of course, you want the same treatment. That critical spirit has a way of boomeranging. It's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblivious to the ugly sneer on your own. Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt? It's this whole traveling road-show mentality all over again, playing a holier-than-thou part instead of just living your part. Wipe that ugly sneer off your own face, and you might be fit to offer a washcloth to your neighbour.

kat2504 · 23/09/2011 10:32

Still no answer though!

ThePosieParker · 23/09/2011 10:33

TRaditional
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. 3 ?Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother?s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ?Let me take the speck out of your eye,? when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother?s eye.

Cocoflower · 23/09/2011 10:39

Kat that was exactly what I have been posting all along. Im not sure how you think I have ever said different. Did we not agree on this sometime ago? However with driving home the fact cross curricular links are important.

Im I going to be accused again of having a manual now?

kat2504 · 23/09/2011 10:50

Yes and we all said cross curricular links actually need to be linked.
For example, in teaching French I make many links with literacy and also with Geography and sometimes History. I don't make links with Astrophysics because it never really comes up.
Stories never really come up in the Science curriculum. In the event that children who have been brought up with a strong Creationist belief raise the question in lessons, I am more than happy for their teacher to answer their questions, either quickly or in depth, as appropriate. As a teacher has already said, empathy with their background is crucial.
But NOT to put a "lets compare Creationism and Evolution" module in the Science curriculum. They are not scientifically comparable.
Talking about something with an open mind is fine. Desirable even. Teaching non-facts along side actual facts is not ok.

Cocoflower · 23/09/2011 11:01

One or two people didn't understand what cross curricular meant. So I went to a lot of effort to explain it, as did norman; and somehow I (strangely no one else who encouraged the same thing!) got accused of having a "manual"! I am baffaled at how taking the time to answer someone question in detail makes them believe somehow they have an ulterior motive. Perhaps now you can see why being accused of something that is so far from the truth, several times, can get rather frustrating.

kat2504 · 23/09/2011 11:11

Er no, you went to a lot of effort to explain what you have decided it means. Just because others don't agree with you does not mean you are right and they are wrong.
Every "tactic" in the so called manual is one that you have actually used during the course of this thread so it is not idle accusation, it is people pointing out how you are behaving.
Also although you have said you are not a creationist, you have never given a real reason why you are so bothered about comparing the specifically Christian version of the creation story and Evolution in schools. You have not really addressed the issue of teaching all the other creation stories that exist in the world, and in our multicultural multifaith society.

Cocoflower · 23/09/2011 11:18

"Er no, you went to a lot of effort to explain what you have decided it means. Just because others don't agree with you does not mean you are right and they are wrong"

Cocoflower Thu 22-Sep-11 17:57:23
Definitons from the web:

+Denoting or relating to an approach to a topic that includes contributions from several different disciplines and viewpoints

+Connections that exist between concepts, vocabulary, and skills from different subject areas (including the arts), particularly those connections that lead to deeper understanding.

+A cross-curricular approach to teaching is characterised by sensitivity towards, and a synthesis of, knowledge, skills and understandings from various subject areas. These inform an enriched pedagogy that promotes an approach to learning which embraces and explores this wider sensitivity through various methods.

The Principles of Cross-Curricular Teaching and Learning

Cross-curricular teaching and learning is:
?Based on individual subjects and their connections through authentic links at the level of curriculum content, key concept or learning process, or through an external theme/dimension;
?Characterised and developed by individual teachers with excellent subject knowledge, a deep understanding of their subject culture and a capacity to reconceptualise this within a broader context of learning beyond their subject, and with sensitivity towards other subject cultures;
?As much about a the development of a skilful pedagogy as anything else;
?Coherent in its maintaining of links with pupils? prior learning and experience;
?Contextualised effectively, presenting opportunities for explicit links with pupils? learning outside the formal classroom;
?Demanding in its use of curriculum time and resources, requiring flexibilityand often needing the support of senior managers if collaborative approaches are to be implemented effectively;
?Underpinned by a meaningful assessment process that is explicitly linked to, and informed by, the enriched pedagogical framework;
?Normally collaborative in its nature, requiring meaningful and sustained cooperation between subject teachers with support from senior managers.

The Purposes of Cross-Curricular Teaching and Learning

The purposes of cross-curricular teaching and learning flow from an understanding of the definition and principles described above. As with the principles, these purposes benefit teachers and pupils alike. The purposes of cross-curricular teaching and learning are to;
?Motivate and encourage pupils? learning in a sympathetic way in conjunction with their wider life experiences;
?Draw on similarities in and between individual subjects (in terms of subject content, pedagogical devices and learning processes) and make these links explicit in various ways;
?Provide active and experiential learning for pupils;
?Develop meaningful co-operation and collaboration between staff leading to the dual benefits of curriculum and professional development;
?Contribute towards a broad range of teaching and learning opportunities located within individual subject teaching, across subjects and in relationship to specific external curriculum themes or dimensions;
?Promote pupils? cognitive, personal and social development in an integrated way;
?Allow teachers the opportunity to evaluate and reflect on their teaching and be imaginative and innovative in their curriculum planning;
?Facilitate a shared vision amongst teachers and managers through meaningful collaborations at all levels of curriculum design.

jsavage.org.uk/?p=568

I have "decided" what it means I copied and pasted from sources

Cocoflower · 23/09/2011 11:19

For the next part:

"Also although you have said you are not a creationist, you have never given a real reason why you are so bothered about comparing the specifically Christian version of the creation story and Evolution in schools."

kat2504 · 23/09/2011 11:22

Googling something does not mean that you understand how it is actually used in the school curriculum.
For what it's worth, primary schools in particular are excellent at cross curricular education already.

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