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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

David Attenborough joins the campaign against creationism in schools.

428 replies

Peanutbuttertuesday · 20/09/2011 17:27

I've posted before about the issue of religion being taught as fact in schools before. I'd be interested to hear what everyone has to say about this.
Discuss!
www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8769353/David-Attenborough-joins-campaign-against-creationism-in-schools.html

OP posts:
Whatmeworry · 22/09/2011 17:25

I genuinely don?t understand why people have such an issue with a "side note" and find it so daunting

Thats a No 4.

They don't think its daunting btw, they think its bullshit.

Creationism is not amn alternative to Evolution, it is a creation myth alongside many others. Teach it as a side note in Philosophy of Religious course by all means but the only things you put in science courses is science.

NormanTebbit · 22/09/2011 17:26

No absolutely I agree Cocoflower

The difficulty is that I think in some schools creationism has been taught as an alternative to evolution and given the same weighting and this relativism is a nonsense.

At some point we have to say that this is a proven and testable theory - this is what happened we have the evidence. There is no evidence for creation. It is a belief.

But I wholeheartedly support children being taught to cross reference across the curriculum, that is the start of thinking critically.

Cocoflower · 22/09/2011 17:33

kat I am talking about RS lessons

"But I wholeheartedly support children being taught to cross reference across the curriculum, that is the start of thinking critically."

Finally; someone gets it! Smile

Whatmeworry · 22/09/2011 17:41

But I wholeheartedly support children being taught to cross reference across the curriculum, that is the start of thinking critically

Cool - so, no Creationism in Science courses then, its done in RS. Agreed?

Cocoflower · 22/09/2011 17:45

You haven't quite grapsed "cross reference across the curriculum" have you?

Whatmeworry · 22/09/2011 17:47

You haven't quite grapsed "cross reference across the curriculum" have you

Why don't you explain it really slowly beacuse I am clearly very dumb.

Whatmeworry · 22/09/2011 17:51

(Suspecting that "cross referencing across the curriculum" actually means No. 2 - Sticking Creationism into the Science syllabus")

NormanTebbit · 22/09/2011 17:52

If teaching evolution you touch upon epistemological basis - empirical knowledge arrived at through testing a hypothesis, through evidence build a theory etc etc

Then point out difference between belief and empirical truths - there is no empirical evidence for creation

Have a discussion with the class.

( I am not a teacher and am probably fantasticaly naive!)

NormanTebbit · 22/09/2011 17:53

basically = how do we know what we know?

Cocoflower · 22/09/2011 17:57

Definitons from the web:

+Denoting or relating to an approach to a topic that includes contributions from several different disciplines and viewpoints

+Connections that exist between concepts, vocabulary, and skills from different subject areas (including the arts), particularly those connections that lead to deeper understanding.

+A cross-curricular approach to teaching is characterised by sensitivity towards, and a synthesis of, knowledge, skills and understandings from various subject areas. These inform an enriched pedagogy that promotes an approach to learning which embraces and explores this wider sensitivity through various methods.

The Principles of Cross-Curricular Teaching and Learning

Cross-curricular teaching and learning is:
?Based on individual subjects and their connections through authentic links at the level of curriculum content, key concept or learning process, or through an external theme/dimension;
?Characterised and developed by individual teachers with excellent subject knowledge, a deep understanding of their subject culture and a capacity to reconceptualise this within a broader context of learning beyond their subject, and with sensitivity towards other subject cultures;
?As much about a the development of a skilful pedagogy as anything else;
?Coherent in its maintaining of links with pupils? prior learning and experience;
?Contextualised effectively, presenting opportunities for explicit links with pupils? learning outside the formal classroom;
?Demanding in its use of curriculum time and resources, requiring flexibilityand often needing the support of senior managers if collaborative approaches are to be implemented effectively;
?Underpinned by a meaningful assessment process that is explicitly linked to, and informed by, the enriched pedagogical framework;
?Normally collaborative in its nature, requiring meaningful and sustained cooperation between subject teachers with support from senior managers.

The Purposes of Cross-Curricular Teaching and Learning

The purposes of cross-curricular teaching and learning flow from an understanding of the definition and principles described above. As with the principles, these purposes benefit teachers and pupils alike. The purposes of cross-curricular teaching and learning are to;
?Motivate and encourage pupils? learning in a sympathetic way in conjunction with their wider life experiences;
?Draw on similarities in and between individual subjects (in terms of subject content, pedagogical devices and learning processes) and make these links explicit in various ways;
?Provide active and experiential learning for pupils;
?Develop meaningful co-operation and collaboration between staff leading to the dual benefits of curriculum and professional development;
?Contribute towards a broad range of teaching and learning opportunities located within individual subject teaching, across subjects and in relationship to specific external curriculum themes or dimensions;
?Promote pupils? cognitive, personal and social development in an integrated way;
?Allow teachers the opportunity to evaluate and reflect on their teaching and be imaginative and innovative in their curriculum planning;
?Facilitate a shared vision amongst teachers and managers through meaningful collaborations at all levels of curriculum design.

jsavage.org.uk/?p=568

Whatmeworry · 22/09/2011 18:07

Sure, cross reference away - but here are the rules:

  • All creation stories to be put up against Evolution, not just one.
  • Deal with all major issues mankind has grappled with, and look at all the religions and philosophies vs science.

Call it Humanism 101 or something.

Oh - and nothing is taught as science unless it has followed the Scientific Method, so you take Humanism 101 instaed of RS or another elective.

Cocoflower · 22/09/2011 18:16

Yep, people are finally seeing my way of thinking!

onagar · 22/09/2011 18:26

Connections that exist between concepts, vocabulary, and skills from different subject areas (including the arts), particularly those connections that lead to deeper understanding.

Okay that rules out teaching creationism in science as it has no relevance at all and doesn't lead to a deeper understanding.

Any more than "I had a dream last night I was being chased by some electrons and they were excited" would be relevant.

Cocoflower · 22/09/2011 18:28

Not again...

Well at least other people grasp clearly what this means.

Shame

kat2504 · 22/09/2011 18:29

No coco, pretty much everyone is disagreeing with you but you can't see it!

Whatmeworry · 22/09/2011 18:31

Okay that rules out teaching creationism in science as it has no relevance at all and doesn't lead to a deeper understanding

I still agree with that.....Creationism is in Humanism 101, along with Egyptian and Bushmen and Eskimo and Muslim creation stories, not in Science

Cocoflower · 22/09/2011 18:31

SIGH

said people can grasp what cross-curricular means and see how that is important and worthy

Not everyone "agrees with me"

I hope you are not education by the way, you seem to get confused very easily

kat2504 · 22/09/2011 18:32

Yes humanism 101 sounds like a good course. All those links between different cultures will actually give us a deeper understanding of the differences between societies and their beliefs.

What it will never do is give us a deeper understanding of science.

NormanTebbit · 22/09/2011 18:33

well it does as you are teaching the basis of empirical knowledge - belief/theory

although whether this sort of thing is part of the curriculum I have no idea

This reminds of what Steve Jobs was saying about education in Britain - that you are either a techy or a creative - he pointed out that Apple products were the result of people who were creative and technical.

It makes sense for these categories to become a bit more diffuse.

NormanTebbit · 22/09/2011 18:34

And of course context and situation, culture affect science - it's important to know that.

ThePosieParker · 22/09/2011 18:36

Cocoflower.....you remind me of Naddine Dorres, this stealth way of altering an argument to get a small yes and then claiming victory. You are not said deluded tossface are you?

Cocoflower · 22/09/2011 18:36

Give up Norman it's beyond them

ThePosieParker · 22/09/2011 18:37

Cross curricular is fabulous and valuable when there's point, there is no reason for creationism ever to be in science. It could only appear for a second to be laughed at and pointed out how utterly ridiculous it was.....along with the moon being made of cheese.

Whatmeworry · 22/09/2011 18:45

I hope you are not education by the way, you seem to get confused very easily

Au contraire, I think we are playing a game called "spot the next Creationism sneak-in to Science wheeze..... great fun :o

Cocoflower · 22/09/2011 18:50

Whatme

I AM NOT A CREATIONIST
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