Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To have no sympathy for the burglar

758 replies

Mitmoo · 19/09/2011 09:10

Another burglar has been stabbed to death when he broke into a businessman's home. His wife and child were returning to the property. The details are very scant at the moment as it is early day.

But the burglars who were stabbed robbing a shop, and an edlerly shopkeeper killed one of them, he was not prosecuted. I think that's right.

It's on R5Live now being debated after another burglar was killed at the weekend.

Personally I think home burglars should take getting stabbed as a occupational hazard. I have no sympathy for them.

OP posts:
Mum2Luke · 19/09/2011 22:49

He got what he deserved in my opinion. The guy was trying to protect his home, not thinking about the burglar's 'rights'. Why should the man have any rights anyway, he broke in to steal and maybe endanger the home owner's life.

Hope the case is dropped and he is freed very soon.

Minus273 · 19/09/2011 22:49

Actually I was defending the householder kelly. Someone had posted about being able to tell in a situation if the attacker actually meant to use their weapon or not. I described my experience to illustrate that in the heat of the moment you are unlikely to think that due to fear etc.

working9while5 · 19/09/2011 22:53

Not read the entire training, but at work (NHS) we were told that if an assailant is moving towards you and you are in fear for your life you are entitled to use reasonable force to protect yourself. I am guessing that this may apply in this case (though I suppose it depends how/where/how many times the burglar was stabbed).

I wouldn't like to have killed someone personally though. It is something you can never undo.

working9while5 · 19/09/2011 22:54

entire thread

JillySnooper · 20/09/2011 07:54

Just read this :

" Jacob had been jailed numerous times for theft, robbery and burglary over the past 20 years. He had also been jailed for 18 months for grievous bodily harm after beating a man senseless.
The police source said: ?Raymond Jacob was known to us as a persistent offender. "

MIFLAW, you were right, what a daft little cheeky chappie he was.
Good riddance to bad rubbish!

They were looking for a safe in the house, apparently.

JillySnooper · 20/09/2011 07:56

And his wife and child did return during the attack and he shouted at them to get out.

Mr Cooke did exactly the right thing. I hope he gets off scot free and gets over this. I also hope that if her ewer ever in the situation again, he'd do the same, as most of us would.

MuthaInsuperior · 20/09/2011 07:59

Totally agree with OP and I too hope the home-owner gets off scot free. He did nothing wrong.

One less piece of scum to deal with on our streets.

I also think the people laying flowers outside the house he was BURGLING at the time are taking the piss.

Springyknickersohnovicars · 20/09/2011 08:00

I wonder if MIFLAW will revise their position.

How the homeowner was supposed to assess whether the knife weilding intruder was a "cheekie chappie" or a "career criminal" I have no idea. The fact he's just broken into your home with a knife though might have given him a clue.

JillySnooper · 20/09/2011 08:11

I particularly liked the fact that he has done time for, " beating a man senseless".

Yup, sounds like just the sort of loveable, daft old rogue you could just hide out from. Hmm

I'm reading The Gift of Fear right now and he says always trust your instincts as they are there to protect us.
Looks like Vincent Cooke did just that. Good on him, I wish him all the very best.

JillySnooper · 20/09/2011 08:12

To be fair, Springy , he was probably just protecting himself from violent homeowners, remember tsk.

TurkeyBurgerThing · 20/09/2011 08:16

I agree with OP. Vile little shit deserved everything he got.

pigletmania · 20/09/2011 08:17

Intruders not only come into homes to steal, other more sinister motives I.e killing and injuring. They have no regard for the people they affect why should we feel any sympathy for them if they get injured or killed by someone defending themselves. Family or not the man had a right to defend his life

JillySnooper · 20/09/2011 08:19

Nick Clegg was good on this .

?The law is very clear: you have every right to defend yourself, your home, your property, your family.?

Nice one.

begonyabampot · 20/09/2011 08:26

terrible situation all round but if sentencing in this country wasn't such a joke then Jacob wouldn't have been free to commit many of his other crimes, there would have been less victims, he wouldn't be dead and the Cooke family going though this nightmare.

Waiting to see what the investigation turns up as no-one knows what really happened yet - Mr Cooke might not have an easy time of it if reports of multiple stab wounds and the knife not being the burglars are true.

Springyknickersohnovicars · 20/09/2011 08:52

If you were attacked by someone holding a knife and managed to stab their hand say, you'd go for it again. I really do feel for him, one man woke up that morning intending not only to burgle but to terrorise, the other got up to have a day with his family. I really hope that the decision not to charge him is made really soon.

If he is charged, I'd like to be on the jury.

JillySnooper · 20/09/2011 08:55

Let's hope to god MIFLAW's not on the jury Shock Wink

Springyknickersohnovicars · 20/09/2011 09:00

The poor bloke would get life don't worry though the rest wouldn't convict. I think that's going to a problem for the prosecution too, how would they find an impartial jury. Most of us would think "If he came into my house, he may well get the same treatment".

I wonder how many burglars are thinking twice now, I wonder if they think at all. I also wonder if more are going tooled up or if they'd go in tooled up anyway. Probably just thinking of their next fix.

Springyknickersohnovicars · 20/09/2011 09:01

I wouldn't be shocked if the burglars family are lodging a claim with Mr Cookes home owners insurance under the accidental damage clause.

bemybebe · 20/09/2011 09:10

Springy sadly I won't be shocked either judging by their behaviour so far. Absolutely shameless bunch.

SharonGless · 20/09/2011 10:35

Too much hysteria on this thread to contribute but thefirstmrsdevere has it spot on

MIFLAW · 20/09/2011 10:44

"I wonder if MIFLAW will revise their position."

I have no need to revise my position. You - and some others - need to read what my position actually IS, instead of making up a load of old shite because it's easier to defeat than what I've actually been saying all along, which is:

  1. the householder had every right to defend himself

  2. because a man has been killed, and we only have the householder's word that he WAS defending himself - rather than stabbing an unarmed man - it is right and proper that the police investigate the case

  3. I personally would have tried NOT to engage in a knife fight with an intruder, mainly because I think this is the safest course of action - though I agree that adrenalin and fear have a part to play

  4. I do not think it is a cause for celebration that a man has died - which some people here do (though they have since tried to distance themselves from that position). I think that, on a parenting website, the lack of consideration or even empathy for the man's family - who, whatever their faults, are NOT guilty of any crime - is particularly grim and disturbing

  5. I do not believe that criminals lose their human rights by virtue of being criminals, nor should they, if only because that approach would be open to widespread abuse - if you don't like someone's views, you just make those views criminal

  6. I also feel sorry for the householder who now has a human life on his conscience

Nothing "woolly", nothing "liberal" - just sensible and human, unlike many on this thread.

MIFLAW · 20/09/2011 10:49

Talking of juries, I am also very worried that, though it is essentially down to one man's word - the survivor's (who, whatever else happened, has killed a man) - there is an almost unquestioning assumption that he is telling the truth.

THAT is why he was arrested - because the police need to CHECK that it was the truth rather than just saying, "oh, well, he looks honest, let's believe him, off you go home." It is ironic that I have been accused (wrongly) of saying the burglar was not a real threat or was in some way a "loveable rogue" (I said he was an idiot, which is not really the same thing) - but the householder's image of a salt-of-the-earth bloody nice bloke is being taken as a given.

I think this country has more to worry about from the holders of the MAJORITY opinion here doing jury service rather than the minority.

Ormirian · 20/09/2011 10:51

I don't entirely agree with miflaw but I think the way he has been shouted down and ridiculed is shameful.

I feel no sympathy for the burglar. Neither do I think that his upbringing, whatever it was like, excuses his behvaiour in any way. I do feel for his family however - criminal or not, his family presumably loved him and will miss him.

But I do think that any incident in which a person is killed needs to be subject to the process of the law. Whatever his reasons. If we start to say 'Who cares? Man was scum, had it coming!" we are no longer living in a civilized sophisticated society. We can't sweep people's lives aside as if they were so much rubbish in the street. We need to find out exactly what happened and take action as a result of that information. It may well be that the homeowner was quite simply acting in terror of his life and doing the only thing he could to protect himself. But we can't assume that was the case. We do the same if a policeman's actions result in the death of a protestor on the street. If someone steps off the kerb in the path of a car and is killed. Unexpected death always has to be investigated.

kelly2000 · 20/09/2011 11:44

Miflaw,
You are concerned that in this country we have a presumption of innocence not guilt? It is not up to the victim to demostrate he is telling the truth, it is up to the cps to prove beyond a reasonable doubt to at least ten people on the jury of twelve that the convicted violent criminal was not killed in self defence.

And if someone is trying to attack you with a knife (which if they were robbing him at knife point whilst trying to force their way in they were) you are not in a position to take the moral high ground and decide not to fight them unless you are prepared to risk your own safety. The only way the victim could not engage in a knife fight would been to have not let them in which is what he tried to do. The intruders obviously intended to hurt and threaten the victim, they ensured they got to the victim, they did not try to rob the place when it was empty, and they took a weapon with which to do so.
Obviously the police have to investigate as they have been cases where people have set people up to kill them and pretended they were home invaders. But so long as they were home invaders and were trying to use violence the victim has done nothing legally or morally wrong.

pigletmania · 20/09/2011 11:49

If the intruders parents had brought him up properly he probably would not have done this. No I am not celebrating his death, nor do I feel any sympathy for a violent criminal who did come armed into the house. It is my right not to feel that way, the fact I am a parent makes no difference. The parents and family have shown no empathy for the homeowner and have overtly displayed their grief with near the homeowners home. Just tells you something about the family doesn't it. If my son had died trying to bugel a home yes I would be distraut, but would display my Freud in a dignified manner and also understand the position of the homeowner