..to not give a flying **** about having a 'natural' birth

[somewherewest]

OK I can understand the desire to avoid intervention if possible but I really really don't get the ideological fervour which some people seem to invest in 'natural' birth. I've been just been going through the handouts from the NCT antenatal course the DH and I are doing and the message basically seems to be "Your choices are important...but if you don't chose to have a 'natural' homebirth sustained only by breathing exercises and whale music and to breastfeed the DS until he's old enough to be bringing girlfriends home then YOUR CHOICES ARE BAD". I really, really do not get this horror of 'intervention'. Is it just that decades of organic yoghurt adverts have conditioned us to think that 'natural' must equal 'better' in every bloody situation, or am I being totally unreasonable?

YANBU.
Having had 1 x natural birth (happened quickly, no time for drugs) and 1x EMCS following epidural, I would choose the EMCS every time.
I breastfed for 6 months each time but I am realistic enough to see that bf is not the only way to nurture and feed a baby.
And yes, I did the whole NCT thing, and I understand all the pros and cons of each approach.

Doh,

Yes you are right Minus - planned c/s is safer.

Did you have placenta praevia?

Just because childbirth is natural it doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt a hell of a lot and that women should be dictated to as to whether they 'need' pain relief by people who aren't feeling the pain.

SexPanda - Who is 'dictating' to whom that they don't need pain relief?

No I have a pelvic malformation and some problem with my uterus as well. Last time after days of contractions and 11 hrs of pushing I remember nothing until I came round in recovery. Last thing I remember is saying that I didn't feel good and a vague notion of an alarm going off. Consultant thinks there is a 99% chance it would go this way again.

I'm surprised that you were encouraged to push for that long, given all that. Did you give birth in a CLU?

I initially went to a MIdwife led unit. I remember the MW saying this isn't going to well lets try for a couple more hours but maybe we should call the CLU. This was about 6hr before dd was actually born. I was quite ill afterwards and struggled for dd to get a latch and didn't produce milk.

YANBU - I had epidurals with both of mine. After both births, the MWs, dh and I all commented on what a relaxed, calm and enjoyable experience it was for us all! In fact I remember we all got the giggles for some random reason when I must have been around 9cm with dd1!

I felt completely calm and in control once the pain had gone and would seriously recommend it! I really don't understand women that seem to think pain has to go hand in hand with a successful birth - you sure as hell wouldn't have an anaesthetic-free root canal treatment. And I bet if men had to give birth, epidurals would be as obligatory as a two year fully paid maternity leave...

I have only read the OP as I could sense a bun fight a-brewin' further along.

I think it's really important that all women are armed with as much knowledge as possible and that they feel (at the risk of coming over all Oprah) empowered to make their own choices and have control over their own bodies and births as far as is practically possible.

However, I also really struggle with the school of thought that says that all medical intervention inevitably leads to a 'cascade of intervention', or that 'natural' birth means not taking pain relief if you need it etc.

I started training as an antenatal teacher with the NCT, but left the organisation because, although it does some fantastic work, I found the prevailing attitude towards pain relief and medical assistance during labour unrealistic, and the attitude towards c-section and assisted birth downright foolish at times.

I should also add that for every woman who prepares for a home water birth, there is a woman who would rather have her right arm sawed off with a rusty scalpel than give birth without an epidural. Different strokes for different folks, as it should be.

titty I'm referring to the increasing pushing of natural births and discouraging the use of pain relief. I read somewhere that some hospitals have epidural targets to meet - maybe a hcp could clarify that one.
If a women decides she need pain relief she should get it no questions asked in my view. And as for the myth that the pain will be bearable if you just relax and breathe

"I really don't understand women that seem to think pain has to go hand in hand with a successful birth"

They don't. But birth tends to be less complicated when women are able to mobilise, which can be difficult when you've had an epidural.

I've had two births without an epidural and one with.

I experienced going through birth without pain relief in the same way I experienced climbing a mountain: it was fucking horrible hard work at the time, but afterwards I felt amazing and had a huge sense of achievement. Nothing like feeling - 'I did all that myself'. Made me feel like superwoman. I know it's not politically correct to say things like that and no doubt someone will come along and accuse me of being smug, but what the hell, it's the truth. And I know lots of other women who've said it too.

Really enjoyed feeling super-high after the birth too. Didn't get the same massive endorphin rush after my epidural birth and feel like I missed out.

"I also really struggle with the school of thought that says that all medical intervention inevitably leads to a 'cascade of intervention'"

Well you probably struggle with it because it's not true. And because nobody says it. Ever. Medical intervention does often lead to a cascade of further intervention. But not all the time.

"I should also add that for every woman who prepares for a home water birth, there is a woman who would rather have her right arm sawed off with a rusty scalpel than give birth without an epidural. Different strokes for different folks, as it should be."

No - for every woman who prepares for a home water birth there are about 15 women who have epidurals.

My personal opinion is that in the current absence of truly humane maternity care across the board - epidurals are a very good thing.

Create conditions which make labour longer, more stressful, more difficult and more painful than it need be and you're going to need to numb women from the waist down, or sedate them with opioids to get through it.

Epidurals are definitely one of the answers to the problems that hospitals have created.

"I'm referring to the increasing pushing of natural births and discouraging the use of pain relief."

Who's doing that then?

"And as for the myth that the pain will be bearable if you just relax and breathe"

It's not a myth. It works for some people. I've had two labours without pain relief and found that relaxation and breathing techniques worked. Still bloody hurt. A lot. But could bear it.

I have had births with and without too titty and my experience couldn't be more different. You say that your natural labour was hard but there are labours and labours, the position of the baby and different pain thresholds make a big difference. For all you know some womens labours are many times more painful then yours or mine. So the 'it's hard but you can get through it because I did' argument just doesn't work. And I know that's not specifically what you said but it's the impression that is coming across.

I didn't feel in either of my hospital births restricted in terms of moving around or anything else that would bring the labour on. I would have wanted and epidural wherever I'd have been. The only difference is that if I'd have been at home there wouldn't have been one available.

If hospitals are being encouraged to cut their epidural rate then of course women are going to be discouraged.

And it is a myth that relaxation and breathing will work for all women. I know this for certain because it didn't make a blind bit of difference to the pain I was feeling. And I have a pretty high pain threshold - I have walked around with an elbow broken in 2 places. The huge tear didn't particularly phase me either but the labour was hellish and I don't appreciate it when people say that birth is natural and you just need to breathe.

Just been refreshing my memory on all this...the "natural" death rate for mothers at birth is about 1 in 100 - ie 1% (Wikipedia), as opposed to c 0.01% in the West today.

I suspect if all our marvellous modern medical technology was not waiting in the wings then modern western Natural Childbirth ideas would get pretty short shrift.

Avinalarf you and me both. You know it is serious when folks disect one anthers posts line by line and cut n paste with answers.

It is a serious discussion but I actually think we are all on the same side of the fence here.

For the record I had two 'natural' births. The first with all the drugs they could throw at me and then a ventouse, the second with just G&A and a ventouse. Guess I am just the wrong shape! Anyway both babies fine, hurrah, and both born on a Monday

Well I delivered both of mine after an average length labour without assistance and no problems after. But with dd it was an 'abnormal' delivery because I had an epidural.

Thing is, as long as someone is happy with the birth themselves, that;s the most important thing.

I remember the threads about OBEM, and especially OBEM USA, where whenever intervention was shown there was a lot of "but they're doing it all wrong!!!!!!11111", even though the woman shown lying on her back with an epidural looked perfectly happy

"You say that your natural labour was hard but there are labours and labours, the position of the baby and different pain thresholds make a big difference".

FWIW - of my two unmedicated births, one involved a shoulder dystocia with an 11lb baby, the other was with a posterior baby and lasted for 36 hours, 12 of which were after I reached 8cm dilation.

I've never been aware of having a high pain threshold - I certainly haven't coped well with dental treatment, recovery from abdominal surgery or any other injury.

However - I did have brilliant care in labour and did have the midwife at home with me, which made it easier for me to cope.

"So the 'it's hard but you can get through it because I did' argument just doesn't work" "And I know that's not specifically what you said"

It's 'not just not specifically what I said. I didn't say it, didn't infer it. You've read this sentiment into my words. It's not there. I don't hold this view.

Just for the record.

Although I do think, now you mention it, some people are more stoical than others.

And that it's as true in relation to childbirth as it is in every other area in life.

Hmm caesareans.

How many women know that if you have a caesarean, your orgasms may be massively affected for quite a long time afterwards, sometimes forever?

For about five years after I had my kids, I had extremely "muffled" orgasms, that's the only way I can describe it - as if I wasn't feeling it clearly anymore. Which I wasn't, because apparently the nerves can be affected by the cut. I was lucky, eventually full sensation came back and now orgasms are as powerful as they ever were (hurray! ) but I have read that some women never regain the full sensation of orgasm.

Not one single medical professional mentioned that to me. Not that it would have made a difference because I didn't have a choice. But I would just caution anyone who does have a choice, that that is one of the risks you take, which no fucker will tell you about.

Also I saw this article recently and thought it made a good point. I hate it when people tell women that all that matters is that they have a healthy baby. It's invalidating women's feelings and telling them they have no right to have them and that's bollocks IMO

I don't get the purely natural stance either. I am for births being as highly medicalised as required/requested and strongly dislike the notion that women feel they have "failed" if they don't have a "natural" birth or if they "succumb" to pain relief.

Times have moved on. It's not hard to imagine back to the times when a medicalised birth was not an option and all women had for pain relief was a bit of leather between the teeth to bite down on. Those who champion natural births do so with the conscious and subconscious knowledge that they ALWAYS have the back up of a medicalised birth. That's what annoys me most. Those who are disparaging about CSs, epidurals, even monitoring ("I fought the midwife, there was no way she was getting the trace on me " type comments, who would be bleating like a stuck sheep if they were facing the birth injuries and/or death during labour like women back in the day and some poor women in third world countries today, who would give their right arm to have access to the delivery units at our hospitals we take for granted.

Then what point are you making about how your labour was hard but you didn't need pain relief. That experience belongs to you and no-one else.

I'm not saying your labour was easy titty just that it's very unlikely to have been the most painful on record.

I've got no complaints about my care in labour. It hurt because labour hurts and for some women it hurts a hell of a lot. Although I do have a friend who swears blind she felt no pain throughout her labour/birth completely without drugs. All women are different.

Bollox, I imagine what you describe is rare or it would have spread round the masses long before now. But well done for trying to derail women who are considering CS.

For the record I have had 2 CSs (1 emergency life saving EMCS for me and DD1, the other an ELCS. Both pretty perfect in terms of surgery, recovery and I can definitively say my orgasms are as brilliant as ever. There again, not having passed a baby vaginally my bits feel just the same too unlike some friends who report they don't feel the same (natural labour) and to coin a phrase "baggier than before".

I'd just like to add my experience that after 2 vb's my hoo har feels tighter than it ever did (uncomfortably so for quite a while). I had always assumed it was the way I was stitched