..to not give a flying **** about having a 'natural' birth

[somewherewest]

OK I can understand the desire to avoid intervention if possible but I really really don't get the ideological fervour which some people seem to invest in 'natural' birth. I've been just been going through the handouts from the NCT antenatal course the DH and I are doing and the message basically seems to be "Your choices are important...but if you don't chose to have a 'natural' homebirth sustained only by breathing exercises and whale music and to breastfeed the DS until he's old enough to be bringing girlfriends home then YOUR CHOICES ARE BAD". I really, really do not get this horror of 'intervention'. Is it just that decades of organic yoghurt adverts have conditioned us to think that 'natural' must equal 'better' in every bloody situation, or am I being totally unreasonable?

Anything about piles is TMI.

OMG - bastard piles.

I just don't believe that tears heal more quickly than cuts TPL and yes, quite happy for the doctor to cut me in a measured way than risk a tear.

BTW both of mine healed really well. I no longer have any clue there were there.

This distrust od the medical profession is very sad TBH. Maybe all those who think doctors are just in it for themselves should opt out of the NHS and see how well they do themselves?

I don't know about the tears/ cut thing anecdotally, because I have no idea if I was cut or tore - the notes were that incomplete.

Mistrust is generally earned, I find.

I haven't read the whole thread but have to respond to a post on page 2 about how first time mums shouldn't be told their first birth might be hardgoing, they should just have hypnobirthing to "take away the terror".

Sorry, but no. I was uber-calm for my birth, hypno'd to the hilt, practised for it like a marathon.. but like my mother and her mother before her, I never went into natural labour after my waters broke and I was induced as a result. I coped well with contractions etc but because I was being induced and couldn't move and what my body was telling me I needed to do was to move, it was not a painfree dream and it ended with a deep transverse arrest and Kielland's forceps.

The biggest lesson I learned from birth is that it can be going a dream for 17 out of 18 hours but that can all change, and change rapidly. It can actually change in seconds. I found it quite easy to be calm first time, but I have seen the unpredictability and imagine this may impact on my next birth.

It probably would have been a good idea to hope for the best but be aware that the best laid plans may go awry.

incidentally the generic distrust of the medical profession has a lot to do with control. I have many female solicitor friends who would not accept any advice fro midwives etc thinking they knew best. Well no, unless you are a trained medic, you don't.

Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with your NHS AN course, Speedy.

My NHS one was quite a long time ago, but I remember it as being basic but covering what I needed to know. That was it. I know the NCT do a lot of good work, but I really didn't enjoy the contact that I had with the people in my local group. There was a party line and you were expected to toe it. Not my kind of thing, so I didn't bother going back.

Agree, working9while5: Hope for the best, but be aware that you can't control everything and sometimes things do go wrong.

I would have preferred a tear to an epi, and no-one is slating the medical profession completely just stating that blind faith is equally sad. Know your options, research, hold tour ground when you can/when sensible and know when to give in if necessary. There is nothing wrong with aiming and working towards the optimum, a VBAC (with or without pain relief, acknowledging that the more you receive chances are the less likely you will have one), I think that is all people are saying.

YANBU.

I had an epidural with dd and she was born quickly with no further intervention and very little pain (which actually does matter contrary to popular belief).

No epidural with ds (no anaesthetist), back to back 'natural birth' absolutely excruciating and I wouldn't have another child for all the money in the world.

I think everyone should have the right to chose, but for me as I don't do natural dentistry or natural operations or natural medicine in general, I opted for a completely medicalised birth. I don't see why I shouldn't use medicine to make my life and the life of my baby safer, easier and more pleasant and that includes the birth. My elective c-section was wonderful and I haven't regretted a moment of it. Each to his/her own though, I wouldn't assume this works for everyone and I am happy for others to have home births, VBs in hospital or whatever else they want.

Oh and I tore both times (despite perennial fucking massage).

I think it could be argued that a cs is not safer for either party.

Unless you know the pp's medical history how can you say that nn? She might have had 3 previous cs's for all you know.

The reason why everyone is so pro natural birth nowadays is because the NHS doesn't have the resources to give everyone the medicalised birth they dream of. They get all the midwives to say "have a natural birth" to try keep costs down and because you're a mug because it is your first time in labour how are you to know that actually it is shit and awful and actually the c-section you had the first time round was much better.

Rant done. Now I will read the thread.

"I just don't believe that tears heal more quickly than cuts TPL and yes, quite happy for the doctor to cut me in a measured way than risk a tear"

That's fine for you as an individual. But doctors are supposed to make use of the best available medical evidence when it comes to making clinical decisions.

Oh, and cuts do sometimes extend into tears. Ouch!

"I don't do natural dentistry or natural operations or natural medicine in general, I opted for a completely medicalised birth"

But birth isn't a disease process like those which necessitate dentistry or other sorts of surgery and medicine.

For me it's more akin to trying to conceive a baby, eat a meal or have a shit. It's a normal body process that sometimes goes wrong and necessitates medical intervention.

So from my perspective opting for a c/s in the absence of a medical rationale is a bit like opting for a colostomy, IVF, or tube feeding before you actually know you've got a problem with the way your body is working.

That's why I said could be argued. With a normal (I use the word under advisement!) pregnancy case a cs poses more risks.

And I think that is very simplistic Ali, medicalised births are pushed very highly where we are, I have yet to come across anyone within the nhs who is pushing a natural birth.

for me it's not about 'natural' or 'not natural'(?) it is about active or passive. i do not want to lie back and have birth done to me.. i want to be in charge, active, doing what feels right to me..

i will accept all medical assisance necessary, but they key factor is 'necessary' - i will not lie back and be a passenger in a process wholly controlled by others because for me personally that will result in feelings of fear and lack of control which i think can only hinder the birthing process.

and for people who mention dentistry.. i would not choose dentistry without painkilling, but i have chosen dentistry with local anasthetic over GA when given the choice because again i want to be aware and awake.

"The reason why everyone is so pro natural birth nowadays is because the NHS doesn't have the resources to give everyone the medicalised birth they dream of"

Don't get your logic.

We all really want a c/s.

But then we all really want a natural birth because the NHS can't afford to do surgery on all mothers?

Absolutely Fluffles. Blind, passive faith is dangerous I think.

And I speak as someone whose teeny dd was yanked out with forceps.

From the way people who are advocating c/s on demand speak, anyone would think a c/s was

risk free
and
pain free

It's not you know. No surgery is.

A "normal" pregnancy means nothing. My first pregnancy was so normal it bordered on boring. I still had SROM with meconium but no contractions.

An with regards to perceived loss of control - I only started to feel in control again once the decision for a CS was made. Before that it was hours of fear and helplessness.

My first was 11lb 2 and stuck, i started loosing blood and if they hadnt got the forcepts out when they did we both would have died

Ds2 was lovely no pain relief, alot smaller and labour alot quicker, I still had to go for surgery 5 hours later as the placenta wasn't budging

Ds3 waters broke at 31 weeks he was transverse so we knew it was cs and high risk of cord prolapse but when labour started the mw didn't want to check if I was dilating because of the risk of infection. Half an hour later cord prolapse and it was down for emcs under general and because they had to do it so quick I will never have a vaginal birth again

How I wish shed intervened when I asked! Unfortunatly some people need interventions and I'm bloody glad that with all of mine they were done before any damage occurrd to the babies or me, allthough last time it was abit bloody close

Of course a section isn't risk free but when you have a medical condition like me that makes the chance of death from a 'natural birth' 99% the C section risks are preferable. I have not elected for a section thinking it will be pain free but rather on the basis that as an individual it is relatively safer. A planned section is safer than an emergency one.

"A "normal" pregnancy means nothing."

You are wrong.

A much higher percentage of low risk mothers have straightforward births than mothers whose pregnancies have been complicated by problems.

So it does signify something important.

Of course if a birth is complicated it's normal to have a reduction in anxiety when you feel the problems are being acknowledged and that action is being taken.

But in the absence of serious problems?

Oh me too, my pregnancy was hugely dull until low amniotic fluid late on but even then not an issue. My labour was flawless, 8 cms in the pool with not even gas and air and coping well, till told I was failing to progress about 4 hrs after getting to hospital...all went a bit tits up after that. I was then clanged around on various trollies and generally treated like a piece of meat by some people severely lacking in bedside manners.

But now I find myself in the dilemma of not knowing where to go with my current pregnancy. Half of me believes even more firmly in the strength and importance of as natural a birth as possible, the other half has lost confidence in my ability to do it after my last. :sad: