..to not give a flying **** about having a 'natural' birth

[somewherewest]

OK I can understand the desire to avoid intervention if possible but I really really don't get the ideological fervour which some people seem to invest in 'natural' birth. I've been just been going through the handouts from the NCT antenatal course the DH and I are doing and the message basically seems to be "Your choices are important...but if you don't chose to have a 'natural' homebirth sustained only by breathing exercises and whale music and to breastfeed the DS until he's old enough to be bringing girlfriends home then YOUR CHOICES ARE BAD". I really, really do not get this horror of 'intervention'. Is it just that decades of organic yoghurt adverts have conditioned us to think that 'natural' must equal 'better' in every bloody situation, or am I being totally unreasonable?

I don't understand the "my body failed me" line from mums who intended to go natural and ended up with a CS or other assistance

What they probably don't realisel is the high incidence of mother death in childbirth pre modern medicine due to said "body failure".

acatcalledbob - I think you are being a bit insensitive. Many women feel disappointed with their birth experience and it is not fair to be dismissive of those feelings.

I gave a flying fuck about a natural birth, I was scared stiff of forceps, episiotomy, needles, hospitals, etc. For some, a hospital and drug availability is their 'safe place', where they feel comfortable and able to give birth. For me, my home and birth pool was where I felt I could cope. Luckily for me, my births went well enough for me to do this, and if they hadn't I would obviously have used whatever medical care was necessary. But to aim for a natural birth was the ideal for me. But we're all different, and that's fine.

I had every drug they could throw at me plus an epidural with both of my births.

They were bloody lovely.

YANBU about not caring about 'naturalness', whatever that is. Though my NCT teacher at least was very careful not to imply that less intervention is better, only that the less intervention needed, the faster you and baby are likely to recover.

My personal conclusion is thank fuck for epidurals, and also for the zillions of staff who agreed to try a ventouse even though it probably wouldn't work, so that I could feel I'd tried all alternatives before a cs - turned out the ventouse worked a treat!

My birth plan was 1 side of A4 mostly saying "if...then, if that doesn't work then..." and the staff loved it.

As for NHS antenatal classes, what antenatal classes quenelle? They don't exist round here! Well apparently they might if you're a teenager, have other risk factors, and book in before around 8 weeks pregnant, but for the rest of us it's NCT or the library and internet.

On the other hand, my plan was "just give me drugs, why should it hurt if it doesn't have to?".

I ended up refusing everything but gas and air as I found it bearable, and didn't want to give up the feeling of being in control.

No one can adequately describe what giving birth feels like, and it's different for everyone. I think the best idea is to have as much information as possible, decide where you want to do it and go with the flow.

On the other hand, my plan was "just give me drugs, why should it hurt if it doesn't have to?".

I ended up refusing everything but gas and air as I found it bearable, and didn't want to give up the feeling of being in control.

No one can adequately describe what giving birth feels like, and it's different for everyone. I think the best idea is to have as much information as possible, decide where you want to do it and go with the flow.

YANBU

I requested and obtained full on epidural for my labour and was delighted when they decided they would wheel me in for a C Section, as labour just wasn't progressing.

In fact a C Section had been planned as she was breech, but she turned a few days before which is why it was cancelled and we went down the "natural" route. I was gutted.

The pressure on women in the UK to confirm to a natural, painkiller free birth followed by breastfeeding is incredible.

Someone said it earlier - sorry, cant remember who, but I really think first-time Mums should be told that its going to be really crap. Very hard and unpleasant and scary. Thank God no-one has to have their first baby twice...second time round is usually much easier, mostly because you are better prepared mentally, and your pelvic floor is already shot!!

As regards intervention, I had lots first time, very little second time. That seems to be the way for lots of women...hence my point above.

For me, a natural birth with no intervention is the most desirable outcome. However, I believe it's best to have an open mind as things don't always work out the way you think they will.

DS1 was induced at 37 weeks (due to OC) and was eventually delivered with forceps (lift out, so not too bad fortunately). I had an episiotomy which took a while to heal and DS1 was jaundiced. Breastfeeding took a while to get established, but was fine with support.

DS2 required a bit of help (some syntocin) but was delivered without forceps. I was amazed how great I felt almost immediately afterwards, compared to feeling a bit like I'd been run over the first time.

The end result was the same. 2 healthy babies.

Natural birth is the ultimate goal, but shouldn't be the be all and end all. I think it's sad that some people feel disappointed in their birth experience and allow that to spoil the first weeks with their newborn (traumatic births are of course excluded from that and need time to recover from).

'The my body failed me' comes from the grief some women get from outsiders when they need intervention. It's horrible the things some people say when they decide you haven't given birth properly.

Sorry to hear that notcitrus. NHS classes still exist here and they are available to everyone.

I wanted my birth plan to read knock me out and cut me open midwife said no. Had 2 with gas and air although I was begging for better drugs I got to the hospital too late for anything good e.g meptid, epidural.

YABU to a certain extent. WRT to pressure placed on women, yes, this is wrong. Women should be educated, empowered and gently encouraged towards a labour and birth with reduced intervention, not pressurised.

Just a few tidbits of info:

Babies can absorb a certain amount of the drugs given to mothers during labour, which means they are sometimes born drowsier - not sure of what other effects this has.

Excessive intervention can, as others have said, cause more problems - it's not called the 'cascade of intervention' for nothing. It interferes with the body's natural processes - we are mammals, and so, like mammals in the wild, our bodies NEED peace, quiet, safety and respect in order to give birth effectively. When the body is allowed to work in the way it is designed to (for example, with minimal stress and pressure place on the birthing woman - ha! When does that ever happen in hospitals? ), the outcomes in most normal birthing situations are better for mother and child.

What clinicians don't admit is that a lot of the birthing problems are caused by excessive intervention. And yes, they have methods to rectify it in the end, but why rely on rectifying a problem that you've inadvertently caused? Why not just not cause it? It would save them a lot of money as well, so generally speaking it should be win-win.

You need to read more than just NCT leaflets if you really want to know what you're talking about. I highly recommend Ina May Gaskin's Guide To Childbirth.

having had two births where intervention was necessary & one drug free natural labour I know which I would choose. All the stuff about your body telling you what to do was so true for the natural birth. Wish all 3 could have been!!

YANBU OP totally agree with your first post. Hugely irritating and makes me glad I am now on the right side of having children and will not have to go though all that nonsense and guilt tripping ever again.

your body, your baby, your choice. have you actually read all the stuff or have you just jumped to conclusions and labelled everyone who wants a natural birth as a bunch of loopy hippies?! there are plenty of very good reasons for avoiding intervention if possible.

natural does mean a better outcome in most situations and there is plenty of evidence to prove it. if you are offended by the nct literature and draw that conclusion from it then that suggests you have unresolved issues yourself and have not done your research properly. if you have made your mind up and are happy that your decisioin is the best for you and your baby then why be so offended by the alternatives?

what exactly is wrong with pointing out the many, many benefits of having a natural birth and breastfeeding for particular lengths of time??

I found the NCT approach very tiresome and avoided them like the plague. I had no birthplan beyond "whatever it takes to get a healthy baby out". I ended up with inductions both times and failed epidurals. Pethidine etc. Still bloody hurt. Both times I got big, loud, shouty babies who breastfed hungrily straightaway. I read up on as much as I could beforehand and deduced that I had no crystal ball so I couldn't really know what was going to happen, so what was the point of being dogmatic about anything much..

Skinnyperson: "Someone said it earlier - sorry, cant remember who, but I really think first-time Mums should be told that its going to be really crap. Very hard and unpleasant and scary" - er, no. Definitely not. They should be told that they can use methods such as birth hypnosis to take away the terror and put themselves in control.

I used hypnotherapy (just a CD, nothing expensive - IMO these should be given out free on the NHS). As a direct result of using the CD, I (a) beat a lifelong fear of birth; (b) felt totally in control and happy during a 2 day labour which resulted in a 3rd degree tear.

Given the choice of facing a difficult labour either with the emotional tools to handle it or without those tools, which would you choose?

bumbleymummy, sorry didn't mean to come across as insensitive and I am not dismissing how mums feel. I simply don't understand why they feel that way. I was intending a drug-free hypnobirth first time around and it didn't happen .... I know that other mums who had similar intentions and similar results as me and were very disappointed with the way things turned out (despite having gorgeous, healthy babies) and I just didn't (and still don't) understand.

Where I live now, there is a huge rate of intervention with a vast number of births induced (epidural is given before syntocin), virtually no home births or birthing pools and there doesn't seem to be a drive for natural birth, or disappointment when reliance on drugs and intervention is higher than intended.

Hmm, sure there's a PhD in there somewhere....

If your wishes are listened to, it's a start. If they are observed it's a bonus IME.

My birth plan, when pregnant with DD1, made it clear that I flatly refused to have a forceps or ventouse delivery - so they gave me a ventouse delivery. :(

No pain relief whatsoever as it was "too late" and no epidural, the anaesthatist was otherwise occupied, just a ventouse delivery. :(

As a result my second birth was an elective caesarean, a fantastic, calm, pain free experience. The alternative had been, for me, an unutterably appalling, distressing and painful experience and there was no way I would have gone through it again.

YANBU.

Not necessarily Minus, I know quite a few women, including me, who were genuinely upset by their birth experience and people constantly saying "it's ok, you have a healthy baby" just upset and annoyed me (and the others) more because they were just being dismissive of our feelings. Sometimes just letting people talk about what they wanted rather than just telling them how they should feel is a nicer thing to do. Of course we know we have a healthy baby and of course we are happy about that but sometimes you need to grieve a bit for the experience you wanted and didn't have.

The NCT makes no bones about its motivation. As an organisation its ethos about childbirth is to try to help women have positive experiences. Most NCT teachers believe that the most positive birth experiences are those involving no unnecessary intervention.

You may or may not agree with it, but it is what the NCT is about and there is no requirement that you attend NCT classes.

To a great extent the NCT type idea is still working its way back from the very medicalised birth norm of previous decades. Things have changed a lot but there are still hospitals with very high rates of CS for example. When I did NCT classes I found that the biggest emphasis was on women knowing their options. The thing that was really hammered home was the importance of always asking questions - is this necessary? What if we wait for a while and see? What will happen if we go down that route?

Even if you aren't that fussed about "achieving" a natural childbirth, it is still worth knowing your options.

I could have died without medical intervention. My labour was swift & fairly brutal. I developed pre eclampsia straight away & had to be medicated throughout to keep my BP down. Then I had a PPH, and then a difficult 3rd stage as placenta wouldn't budge. It came away at the last minute before they took me to theatre. I had an hour of suturing. I was very dizzy & faint, but at least we were safe.

I wish I could have had an epidural. I was happy to play it by ear, but once contractions kicked in I was terrified & knew I was struggling. I was gutted when all there was time for was g&a and pethidene. Neither helped me much. I have never felt so alone as I did at that moment, knowing what I was facing. And it bloody HURT.

I couldn't afford nct classes anyhow, but they never appealed to me. I just did all my research on here & using a few books. Oh, & watching a whole series of OBEM at 37 weeks to get my head round labour a bit more. :)

FWIW if any of you watched the BBC3 programme about bfing, it was interesting to note that the guilt which some women feel about not bfing often comes from within - i.e when a non-bf woman hears other women just talking about how brilliant bfing is, etc, etc, whether or not the bfing mothers know that the non-bf woman was non bf, (are you still following? ), the non-bf woman sometimes start to feel guilty. If the pages of MN are anything to go by it's quite common to see non-bf women hold bf women responsible for their guilt rather than own it as something they've generated themselves.

I've never felt pressure to bf or go for a natural birth. I read lots, listened lots and made my own decision that both were for me. It's highly possible that women who feel guilty about not going for the 'natural' options are, at least in part, generating their own guilt or feelings of being pressurised, but blaming others for their guilt.