..to not give a flying **** about having a 'natural' birth

[somewherewest]

OK I can understand the desire to avoid intervention if possible but I really really don't get the ideological fervour which some people seem to invest in 'natural' birth. I've been just been going through the handouts from the NCT antenatal course the DH and I are doing and the message basically seems to be "Your choices are important...but if you don't chose to have a 'natural' homebirth sustained only by breathing exercises and whale music and to breastfeed the DS until he's old enough to be bringing girlfriends home then YOUR CHOICES ARE BAD". I really, really do not get this horror of 'intervention'. Is it just that decades of organic yoghurt adverts have conditioned us to think that 'natural' must equal 'better' in every bloody situation, or am I being totally unreasonable?

I think 'knowledge' and 'choice' are the watchwords here - yes, of course ideally we'd all want pain-free, intervention-free births while we breathed our babies out; BUT if in labour and there is a problem then we are lucky enough to live in the 21st century and be able to take advantage of drugs and medical intervention.

The problem is the cycle of intervention - once something medical has been done it tends to lead to something else and something else. Like if you have an epidural to numb the pain then you can't walk round and have an active labour so you're more likely to labour in bed on your back and need forceps/ventouse
/an episiotomy. All directly linked. But then, some of us have higher pain thresholds than others.

I had a planned CS with my first as she was breech - an ECV failed. The surgeon had to cut the cord to get her out - it was wrapped 3 times round her neck. He discovered during the CS that I have a bicornuate uterus (heart shaped) and dd was wedged into one corner. She would NOT have been born vaginally. She would have died, had we not lived now.

My ds was born vaginally but after a LOT of intervention - which I swore I'd avoid but it just hurt too much . But I bf them both, dd for 2 years and ds for 3 years.

I went to NCT classes during my first pg and they were useful for meeting a nice bunch of people who are good friends now! But the teacher was terrible in that she made us feel like intervention and a CS are the worst things that woulc possibly happen to you.

You are not BU, but it is better for the baby and you, generally to avoid intervention in birth... but then, most births now are pretty medicalised and babies and mums survive.

I went into having DS2 with the idea that I wanted as little intervention as possible and until I was 9cm dilated I got just that (though nearly ended up being induced - started labour while on the ward waiting!) Then I was moved to delivery and had G+A until I started pushing, at which point it was obvious that DS2 was stuck and not coming down properly. The obstetrician was called and I ended up needing an assisted delivery. I don't feel that I failed or any other negativity. I needed help and got it and am grateful that we live in an age when women don't (routinely) lose babies or die themselves anymore due to birth compliations.

YANBU. I found the NCT mantra of 'natural' childbirth far too much to bear. All I cared about was making sure that my babies were born safely and, like you, was happy to defer to medical experts to determine the best way for that to happen. DS1 was breech and despite swathes of medical advice to the contrary, my NCT teacher still tried to tell me that I should insist on a 'natural' delivery rather than CS. A couple of weeks after I had DS1 (by elective CS) I found out about another mum whose baby was breech who had a natural delivery (they didn't discover baby was breech until she was in labour) and the baby didn't survive.

So my advice is to ignore the crap NCT feed you, do your research, trust your instincts and go with what feels right for you and your baby.

I agree OP!

Natural is not always best. I loved my epidural and the fact my other interventions kept me and my daughter alive

However I dont want to see a a pair of forceps again this time!

My poor mum had to deliver my sister breech and without any pain relief... that's the 70s for you!

Intervention saved my babies life and mine too. So nothing wrong in what you are saying. I remember the bullshit about birth plans, even then, I thought I will take it as it comes. How does anyone know what's coming? I certainly didn't, I probably wouldn't have made it in the 70's.

Do what you feel is right.

Good post CailinDana. It sums up what I was going to say which is that the thing that really annoys me is this underlying sense in a lot of the pro-natural talk that you just choose to be for it or against it and that pretty much determines how things will be. As if you can think right, I don't want forceps so I'll have a home birth. As if anybody goes into it thinking forceps, that's a good idea.

Of course it's a no-brainer that it's great if you can avoid medicalisation, but to a very large extent it's beyond your control.

The whole thing has got too ideologised, if that's a word. Your body will do what your body will do, and for some Mother Nature will do her job wonderfully and for others she hasn't got it quite right, and they may well need intervention. I'm prepared to admit there's some truth in the cascade of interventions notion but it is overstated imo.

I have had 3 easy births with gas and air and no interventions.
Dc4 was in a different hospital and im not really sure what happened tbh but i ended uo on all sort s of monitors, she had some monitor tuck on her head (her head was bleeding all over by the time she was born) and it was onk lucky that she was born so quickly being dc4 as there were about 5 people in the room ready to knock me out for c section when she suddenly shot out. I still to this day dont knpw WHY as even at the time no one would bloody take the time to talk for one minute i know my blood pressure was high but it was no higher than it had been in the preceeding month. I have no problem with interventions but that birth was more stressful and painful than the others put togteher because of hwo it was handled and i did see firts hand how things seem to snowball out of the control of the mother.

This time it has been mentioned that i coukd have and epidural from early on so that i cam be "ready" for interventions. I have no idea what to do a part of me says wtf why? Another says just go with it it will be less painful!

I've never felt like a failure even though all of my births had interventions of some kind. I can understand though how some women feel this way as it seems alot of emphasis is put on having an intervention free birth.

However I did feel like I was failed by the mw regarding ds3 birth which has left me with alot of conflicting emotions about the birth

I wish they had intervened when I asked them too but the mw was more concerned with the risk of infection

Its the whole 'natural' versus 'unnatural' thing that seems to permeate childbirth and childrearing.

Following the logic, what is an unnatural birth - alien abduction?

Surely all births are natural - intervention is just what it is - intervention.

Nobody talks about natural wisdom tooth extraction. Presumably impacted wisdom teeth are a natural occurrence?

the nct message is based on research into what provides the best outcome for mother and baby. it's not crap, it's advice. just the same as advice on breast is best - it's based on research into what provides the best outcome for mother and baby. it's not crap, it's advice.

it's not a personal insult aimed at those who do it differently, it's not a prescriptive list of right and wrongs. there's nothing wrong with advocating an intervention and drug free way of doing things when it has proven benefits.

but using pain relief in a wisdom tooth extraction doesn't lead to potentially more and more invasive interventions so that arguement really doesn't hold.

I find it annoying that the general media always portray labour & birth as a grueling event. No wonder we're all conditioned to be terrified at the thought of it! There are lots of studies to prove that if you are in a state of fear your body tenses up and your pain threshold goes way down. It's the fight or flight response, and well, you can't run away from birth! So you end up "fighting" the birth process. I want a natural birth not because I want "to feel validated as a woman" or whatever, it's so that I can have an alert, calm baby and hopefully not be too drugged/knackered/injured to jump right into enjoying being a new mum.

I do believe birth IS a natural process and your body instinctively knows what to do. I also think a lot of the medical intervention just ends up confusing your body preventing it from just getting on with it.. and so this leads to more intervention. But I wouldn't advocate just hoping for the best. I've put in a lot of time and energy understanding what actually happens within the body during labour/birth as well as learning - and practicing - breathing and relaxation techniques. These techniques will hopefully keep me calm even if the birth has any complications and I need intervention. We'll see! Mostly I think women should stop seeing 'natural birth' as some sort of status symbol in the same way a grueling birth is sometimes a badge of honour. To me, I'm just hopeful that things go smoothly so I can get home and enjoy being with my baby as soon as possible. In the meantime the thought that labour can be natural, calm and not painful is really lovely. Much better than being terrified in the final weeks.

In answer to a couple of posts I have of course read other stuff (being literate and not an idiot helps here), although I'll admit to not owning an entire library on the subject (bad me). The NCT literature in question is not the only 'natural births' are wonderful literature I've read...its just the literature irritated me enough to post here.

naturalbaby The NCT literature skirts pretty close to implying that intervention equals 'inferior' from my reading of it. It is very very one-size fits all. And part of what irritates me is that as a historian I realise how horrific infant and maternal mortality rates were before modern medical care became widely available. It irritates me when that care is treated as some kind of obstacle to overcome on the pathway to a 'natural' birth rather than the imperfect but still amazing privilege that it is.

saying that I couldn't give a fuck about anything other than us both being save at the end of it so OP YANBU

The problem is more the way the message is put across by some NCT people natural. I was asked why I didn't love my dd enough to consider trying to do it properly' I don't beleive all NCT people are like that but how anyone can see that as anything other than offensive and something that gives the NCT a bad name is beyond me.

"the nct message is based on research into what provides the best outcome for mother and baby"

What's your definition of 'best' here? Using my personal experience as an example, it was telling a new mother that she should risk her own life and that of her unborn child just to avoid the indignity of having a c-section!

Sorry - but the types of NCT advocates who refuse to acknowledge that there is more than one way of doing things aren't doing parents any favours at all. Don't get me wrong, a lot of what I learnt in NCT classes was excellent advice, but they most certainly do not always know 'best'.

Around our way the NCT are the only ones running longer, more detailed antenatal classes, so there isn't a choice if you want more than the couple of hour NHS ones. The woman teaching the course is absolutely fine by the way and hasn't pushed anything in particular so far. Of course a lot of what they say is useful (who the hell wouldn't ideally like an intervention-free birth?)...I just don't like being pushed in a particular direction.

Essentially, the NCT is an independent charity whose goals are clear. If you don't like it, don't be involved.

Personally I feel that their work is important, if you believed everything that the NHS told you (according to my MW: our bodies aren't cut out for childbirth any more, birth plans are pointless as it is "all in the lap of the Gods, or should I say surgeon hahaha", BF rarely works so get some formula in and know how to use it) then you'd be going into childbirth very blinkered.

Whichever path you choose to go down, surely you want to be informed? If you want to go down the heavily medicalised route then the NHS is there, if you want to know and understand your options then the NCT is there to provide the alternative viewpoint. Surely that can only be a good thing? Take the information and make of it what you will?

The natural route on the whole does have the best outcomes...minimal intervention is proven to be best for both mother and child apart from when absolutely necessary. All intervention should be both timely and appropriate, not just because you have been "in the system" for a set number of hours therefore they have to move you along. (Yes, I had a classic cascade of intervention ending up with an epidural that could have knocked a horse down at 20 paces, an epistiotomy, forceps and a whopping blood loss.)

It is also a tad silly to label those who do want a natural birth as some sort of crazy hippy, the God of medical science has proven that a VBAC is the safest route for a baby, and the heavier the drugs you are given the less likely you are to have one. You try pushing a baby out paralysed from the neck down, relying on a midwife to tell you when you are having a contraction. And natural term breastfeeding (note I said natural term, not extended or some such silly term) is also perfectly normal.

So fair enough, don't give a toss about a natural birth if that is what you want. But why try to knock an organisation attempting to redress the balance for those who do?

Great! It's up to you. Ignore it then.

IME birth was easiest when I was the one who decided what was happening and as I was fortunate enough for my labours and deliveries to be straightforward(ish), I was able to do that. For me natural birth without too many interventions was a good experience. One I'd recommend for anyone in the same position as me. But as it's your body I guess you must do what feels best.

An open mind helps.

OP, I agree! In any other medical situation you wouldn't hesitate to take pain relief etc. You wouldn't have an operation without an anaesthetic.

It is true that childbirth is natural, but it can also be horrifically painful, maybe not for everyone, but certainly for many women. There's no shame in taking drugs which have been proven to be safe.

"Or, you are investing the leaflets with your own agenda and for some odd reason trying to deter pregnant women from seeking the antenatal advice they need and deserve".

Piprabbit Seriously, what the fuck are you on? The only bloody point is that pregnant women like me should have a FULL FECKING RANGE of information. Which part of that is hard to understand? It is precisely because I want to be informed and to make my own choices that I object to one-sided one-size-fits-all information.

"Of course it's a no-brainer that it's great if you can avoid medicalisation, but to a very large extent it's beyond your control"

Yes - if you live in a culture where birth is highly medicalised, and you choose to give birth in an environment where medical intervention is the norm, the likelihood is that - unless you have a completely straightforward labour - you'll have interventions too.

"Your body will do what your body will do"

If that was the case then you'd have similar rates of intervention across hospitals and across low risk groups who give birth in both high tech and low tech settings.

Actually where you give birth and who you have with you at the time of the birth seems to have quite significant bearing on the likelihood of you needing help to get your baby out.

Don't mind having a high chance of an emergency c/s, forceps, episiotomy, ventouse? Then choose to give birth in a CLU with poor staffing levels and a high c/s rate. Oh, and opt for an epidural.

Want to do everything you can to reduce the likelihood of needing surgery and having an episiotomy? Then get an independent midwife, give birth at home, get a doula, go to a birth centre. And don't have an epidural. Not all of them mind! But individually, each one of these choices is associated with lower intervention rates.

So yes - your birth choices often CAN influence the sort of birth you have.

"The NCT literature skirts pretty close to implying that intervention equals 'inferior' from my reading of it."

Well - give us an example and we'll judge whether you're being biased or not.