..to not give a flying **** about having a 'natural' birth

[somewherewest]

OK I can understand the desire to avoid intervention if possible but I really really don't get the ideological fervour which some people seem to invest in 'natural' birth. I've been just been going through the handouts from the NCT antenatal course the DH and I are doing and the message basically seems to be "Your choices are important...but if you don't chose to have a 'natural' homebirth sustained only by breathing exercises and whale music and to breastfeed the DS until he's old enough to be bringing girlfriends home then YOUR CHOICES ARE BAD". I really, really do not get this horror of 'intervention'. Is it just that decades of organic yoghurt adverts have conditioned us to think that 'natural' must equal 'better' in every bloody situation, or am I being totally unreasonable?

I think if you have such a negative attitude to 'natural' birth then I think you are right to put yourself in medical hands and trust them implicitly.

Good luck, because imho, you'll need it!

But seriously, the system is not built for the woman and the child or what they actually need to have a safe and comfortable birth; The system is designed to try to avoid law suits and to suit the obstetricians and the hospital management. I'm not blaming anyone but the system does pretty much suck ime and imo.

When I had dd I went for a no intervention birth. I had contractions between 5 and 2 minutes apart for 50hr with only one dose of paracetamol in that time (I got tired after the first 36hr). I used a tens machine for the next 11hrs as I couldn't take it any more. I had gas and air for the next 13hrs 11 of which I needed to push. At no point did dd really get any where near coming down the birth canal, I was pushing against nothing. The last things I remember were the numbers falling on the monitor they hooked me up to, telling MW I didn't feel well an alarm going off. Next thing I remember is waking up in recovery.

The consultant tells me that due to a medical problem I have (that we now know about) dd and I would both have died. She also said there is a 99% chance both baby and I would die if I tried again. I am pregnant again and am accepting intervention. The comments about not loving dd, being too posh to push, being lazy, being ignorant, having not thought things through, they hurt but am I going for a natural birth again, am I fuck. I prefer being alive.

True my body doesn't work and I am not a true woman but really does this mean my baby and I should die?

Whew, nomoreheels, that sounds awful. It is for times like that that I am so glad that we have such great healthcare available. For times when it's needed, 9 times out of 10 it is amazing.

Interesting that you genned up on birth from OBEM - I deliberately avoided it because I believed it would fill my head with negative thoughts and feelings about birth! Have to be honest, having watched it subsequently I am glad I avoided it.

Well you are paying to attend a course ran by the NCT which previously stood for Natural Childbirth Trust, if you don't like the look of the course don't do it. Or you can open your mind and find out that maybe some of what they say might help you.

I didn't attend the NCT but I had a friend who did and I went to a post-natal meet up that she had in her house. It was like a wake. They had all been told in no uncertain terms by a very irresponsible NCT teacher that the only way to give birth was "naturally" ie without intervention of any kind. My friend told me that the very strong implication throughout the classes was that intervention was classed as a "abnormal," and they never talked about forceps or c section or any other interventions as it was assumed that, being NCT ladies, they would not need such things. The teacher herself had had three children "naturally."

Fast forward to the post natal group and out of 6 women not a single one had had a "natural" birth. 3 had c-sections and 3 had forceps/ventouse and of course all had had an epidural as a result. The subject of births came up and everyone was so negative and apologetic about how their births went. There was the constant mention of "oh of course I wanted it all to be normal but it all went wrong..." as though they were excusing themselves for their "failure." I deliberately kept quiet but eventually someone asked and I replied honestly that I had only had gas and air. Everyone sadly uttered "well done, good for you etc" as though I had chosen it! I found it really sad that they were so hard on themselves for something they couldn't possibly control and I felt very angry that it was a woman who was supposed to be helping them that made them feel that way.

Minus73 "True my body doesn't work and I am not a true woman but really does this mean my baby and I should die?"

You do realise that that whole sentence is utter bollocks, don't you?

Of course your body works; you have a medical problem which placed you and your baby at risk, but that doesn't mean you should write off your body as a failure. Everyone's body messes up in one way or another - heart attacks, eczema, pimples. Doesn't mean all our bodies 'don't work'.

Of course you're a true woman. Tsk. 1000 lines and detention for you, missy!

And of course you both shouldn't die. No need to elaborate!

Widowwadman that is no scare story, it's my story. I had a very intervention heavy first birth and it led to DS1 not breastfeeding and to me sustaining permanent damage to quite a lot of my body, plus a genuine fear and trauma. Some of the intervention was necessary and some of it wasn't. Some of it was done well and some of it definitely wasn't. There is no point in anyone closing their ears to the fact that interventions carry a risk, or refusing to accept that doggedly natural births carry a risk too.

FWIW I had a lovely home water birth with DS2 and still ended up in hospital a few days later because of a complication very personal to me...there are no guarantees with childbirth.

kungfupanda has summed up very well what I wanted to say. I am suprised what you say about the NCT - I don't think they shove natural birth down your throat at all, I think they are all about knowing your choices and trying to get the best birth possible in the circumstances. It probably depends on your individual NCT teacher but this idea that the organisation is totally anti intervention is very outdated. THere is lots of good literature out there about natural birth if you want to find out a bit more about it before condeming it totally.
By the way I had two ELCS and was perfectly happy with my births. On the other hand I would encourage any woman to at least plan for a natural birth at home or in a birth unit if they were low risk knowing what I do about how women's bodies work.

Depends on personality type as well imo. As a control freak perfectionist I was gutted with ds1 when I had c section and it did feel like I and my body had let me and ds down (this was not helped by the fact that everyone else in family seemed to see it that way too. By dd I had it cracked and had pages of birthplan covering every possible eventuality! I personally think my personality type also often prefer c section planned in advance so it if fully controlled, but as I am a hippy control freak perfectionist rather than a big business alpha type I went for the whole knit your own birth pool approach
Apparently some women are more relaxed about life! I can never understand for example the whole 'hcp know better than me' idea - I mean, shurely not :)

"the message basically seems to be "Your choices are important...but if you don't chose to have a 'natural' homebirth sustained only by breathing exercises and whale music and to breastfeed the DS until he's old enough to be bringing girlfriends home then YOUR CHOICES ARE BAD". "

Never in a million years is that the message you get from the NCT as an organisation . They exist to ensure women have the information they need - including information about all forms of medical relief, interventions and CSs - so that women can make informed decisions as they progress through labour and childbirth.

Either you have a renegade AN teacher, in which case report them direct to the NCT so that they can handle the situation.
Or, you are investing the leaflets with your own agenda and for some odd reason trying to deter pregnant women from seeking the antenatal advice they need and deserve.

Either way, it is clear that your didn't actually listen while in your NCT classes. If you had, you would have come away with a few ideas about why a highly medicalised birth is not ideal, and why BFing is believed to be beneficial - and you wouldn't need to be asking us.

Speedy, I watched it to face my fears really - I felt that I needed to physically hear labour & try not to freak out. Prior to this, even catching the ads for it made me very uncomfortable. I dunno which series you watched, but I didn't pick up any negativity. The main thing I remember is lots of women with long, slow labours that took days to get through - and thinking later that mine was nothing like that! I suppose it's easier to follow those stories in terms of tv.

Hey, everyone is different - and that's OK! I just did things the way I felt comfortable with and that wouldn't suit someone else. I don't care how anyone else did it. I have NIL interest in anyone else's birth stories, so I'm not going to judge anyone for doing things the NCT way or not. Surely it's about using your commons sense. Minus, you'd be crackers for trying to go natural again, knowing what you know, obviously. Hope no one tells you different. I think it's a bit of a shame that some people feel they absolutely must do the expensive NCT antenatal courses when the NHS ones are perfectly good.

YABU

Thank heaven for NECESSARY intervention.

Valued by all - including the NCT.

But to end up with surgery or a forceps birth resulting in a shredded perineum that could have been avoided with better care? No thanks.

It's not just the NCT who are saying that many women are having avoidable interventions. Doctors and midwives are saying it too.

As for your comments re: NCT info - you think they have an ideological axe to grind. Can we have examples of information from them where they say that all women must breastfeed for 10 years, or that anything other than natural birth is bad and wrong?

Or is it you distorting things because YOU have an ideological act to grind?

Opting for the status quo - which in this country means a medicalised approach to birth and a very short duration of breastfeeding is just as much about taking a position as opting out of it by going for a low tech birth and natural term breastfeeding.

If you feel the NCT isn't giving you evidence based advice then ask for your money back.

Otherwise quit whining.

I get heartily sick of people assuming that wanting a natural birth means you are a tree-hugging, whalesong-playing, empty-headed unscientific windbag. Very annoying.

I had an horrific first birth, during which all of the "problems" were iatrogenic. Cascade of intervention, avoided an EmCS by minutes.

For my next two, I informed myself. I read study after study - I was better informed on the specific issues I was facing than the SHO who tried to railroad me into induction. (I don't know if she was misinformed or lying, but she gave misleading figures and cited discredited studies.)

I spent a lot of time discussing the births with my MW team, and they were completely supportive.

There was fuck all whale song, no scented candles or woo music, not a sniff of aromatherapy. I don't do woo. I had natural births. Worlds apart from the hospital experience.

Stranded, I was low risk throughout my P. If I'd had a home birth I do wonder what might have happened to me & DD. Would they have been able to manage my PE in time? Just saying that low risk pregnancy can still go very wrong, unfortunately.

but YANBU.

Personally, if the option of an epidural is there, I'd take it. You wouldn't have a tooth out without anaesthetic or - I don't know - take a pan out of the oven with your bare hands (crap analogy) - but if the option of pain relief is there I think it's strange to refuse it on the grounds of wanting to struggle through alone.

10, 20, 30 years down the line your child won't care whether you had pain relief or not.

this isn't about the horror stories vs the natural births or the intervention itself and whether it should or shouldn't b used. it's about the op who obviously has issues with the fact that the nct is supporting a way of giving birth that is proven to be beneficial. there is no implication of right of wrong, or failure if you don't do it their way. obviously they support the more natural way of doing things because it has proven benefits but they do inform and support parents whatever their opinions and choices.

cumbria81 - so you wouldn't be interested in hearing about ways of handling the pain of transactions before you get as far as the hospital?
Or to understand the alternatives if the only anaesthetist is stuck in surgery for a couple of hours, while you climb the walls?

Why wouldn't you want that information, and why shouldn't the NCT supply it?

Link to NCT factsheet on CS, seems very accepting of all choices to me.

Perhaps I'm missing the bit where they mention the FAILURE?

I think NCT should keep a very close eye on the messages from their AN teachers. The two I know are good, well meaning women who absolutely believe that they are doing their best by the couples they teach. And both are utterly passionate about avoiding cs and epidural. One said "yes we cover cs, along with other things that can go wrong."

The other sits on the local maternity services committe and does a lot of excellent work. But openly asserts that women should NOT choose c section because she believes that if people knew what she knew, they would make a different choice!!! She campaigns at a local level to remove the right to ask for c section at maternal request, because she believes that it's an expense which could be better spent elsewhere. If this is her personal opinion, she's entirely entitled to it, but to then act as an NCT teacher sends a mixed message.

My first birth, and the others, were all natural and lovely and i would very happily do it all again. No pain relief needed or wanted. if i have a headache i take paracetamol but i didn't put myself through hours of agony waving any offer of pain relief just to prove a point. it can be done, you can give birth without being in unvelievable agony and you are not a mad hippie for wanting to or achieving it.

isn't it better to hear positive stories rather than the horror stories all the time that send 1st timers quivering into the delivery room ready for the most horrendously painful experience they will every go through?

YABU.
Necessary intervention is of course life saving and welcome but the problem is in the abuse of intervention.

During labour I was told to have pethidine. It didn't take any of the pain away but it made me go all loony and hysterical. I wish I had never had it.
But of course if my DD was about to die I'd be grateful for a CS. Everything is so available now that the NCT is just trying to remind us that childbirth has it's bases on a natural process that at times needs a little help.

Oh i had the full works with both of mine.

Starter of gas and air.

Pethidine for main course with a side order of tens machine.

Epidurel for pud.

Narrowly avoided a c section with both of mine and almost got chopped to bits when the boys shoulders got stuck. One glimpse of those torture instruments being rolled out soon had him shooting across the bed and I remained flange intact

I think a lot depends on the quality of your NCT teacher and the variation can be huge. Mine was dreadful and really biased against hospital delivery, taking the 'wait and see' option to the extreme. Luckily I decided pretty early on that I wasn't going to absorb a lot of what she said and apart from the fact that we'd forked out 175 quid pointlessly, (I liked only one of the other mums) DH and I just enjoyed the time together getting excited about meeting the LO.

My friend's teacher was a lot more balanced and she is still in touch with her.

The NHS classes were about 40 people large and really just lectures but I found them much less biased and more informative.

After that, I learnt to avoid any books/info about pregnancy/birth/baby rearing/child rearing that have adjectives in the title.