To think a school can't legally suddenly ban the headscarf for muslin girls!

[Headscarfs123]

So our local catholic school has banned the headscarf this week...disastrous for some of the girls but also against church advice that headscarfs are fine, against DFES advice about consultation and sensitivity to religious groups, against best practice as this type of change should involve the governing body? discriminatory on religious and sexist grounds...Sikh boys can keep their turbans.

Aibu to think that the school is legally in the wrong?

I think the OP said at the beginning of the thread it was a state school

It's not private, there is. Catholic girls school,a catholic boys school and a joint sixth form. Girls and boys together...St benedict's.

It isn't fair enough because it is a new change, a sudden change, a change without consultation and outside DFES guidance etc

If I'm looking at the right one, it's a voluntary aided comprehensive, ie the buildings are owned by the church, and they get to choose the Governers, but otherwise it's pretty much entirely state funded.

Yep...that's the description I should have given!

Posie, it's just that we seem to have our own cultural expectations and sexist restrictions but instead we seem so obsessed with a headscarf and what this means in terms of restrictions and pressure from a male dominated society such as Islam. Someone said about why wear such an impractical, cumbersome item as a scarf or hijab - only expected for women. What does our own society expect for women - high heels, pretty feminine clothes, make-up and fancy hairdos - very practical and leads to women being pressurised to fit this ideal and conform - seems to be all about appearance and looking attractive while our young girls strive to be wags and the likes of TOWIE. I'm really not sure which one is more damaging but it all seems a bit hypocritical to think that muslims wearing scarfs must be deluded, controlled and brainwashed - unlike us of course.

This is a good point I think in terms of the male & cultural pressure/opression side of the headscarf argument.

For example, I currently have quite hairy legs and bikini line (TMI), because I haven't gotten around to dealing with it. I feel I can't go swimming until I've defuzzed, and my DP would prefer it if I dealt with it and is horrified at the idea of hairy armpits on a woman.

I know it's a simplistic example, but it is an example of a male & cultural pressure (as I'd imagine women at the baths would secretly be horrified at my spiders legs haha) I have in my life to conform to a certain idea of beauty - ie the hairless the better. It's definitely sexist - women are generally expected in our (UK) society to be hairfree.

fanjobanjo - yes of course there are loads of examples of male and cultural pressure in 'mainstream' British society for women to 'be' a certain way.

Doesn't make it good - and there are many women who DO find it degrading and oppressive. Others appear not to mind and see it as part of their own identity - go figure.

But to get back to the OP, that school does seem to come across as quite evangelically Christian, is it like that?

Doesn't make it good - and there are many women who DO find it degrading and oppressive. Others appear not to mind and see it as part of their own identity - go figure.

It's just a valid point that evens out the field a little bit in terms of people declaring that women who cover their heads are "brainwashed" by the men in their culture to adhere to certain rules.

I decide I don't want hairy legs and shave them - but is that really my decision, or is it a choice I have made because I have been "brainwashed" by cultural and social pressure, mainly brought about by a man's idea of beauty?

I veer towards the different arguments sometimes. I don't know if the headscarf/hijab is a good thing or not - depends if the wearer feels pressurised to wear it or if it's a choice and I can imagine many young girls hitting teenage years who start to think more seriously about their cultural background and religion and might be experimenting with their faith as did many of us did in my catholic school (even thought about being a nun briefly). Some of them might like the look and wear it as a statement, to stand out to be different and not conform like many of their friends to western ideals of beauty and fashion. On the other hand I hate the idea that it is forced but do you ban it for all just because some are forced. I really don't like the burhka or naquib but I struggle with banning items of clothing and telling women what they can or cannot wear. Women can walk about practically naked but we get so steamed up when they want to cover up and retreat a bit from the pressures of western ideas of what's normal.

I'm more concerned that women still seemed to be judged more for their figure, clothes, hair, attractiveness, grooming etc - some jobs where things like heels, make-up, hairstyles are either expected if you want to suceed or actually contracted in.

I am not a fan of the hijab or the ideas behind it. Therefore, I do not wear it. A Muslim woman would probably be uncomfortable with the values that are most important to me, and I would not expect her to uphold them to avoid offending me.

'I may disagree with what you say, but defend to the death your right to say it'

I think that any woman should be able to wear whatever they want when walking up the street (within the law!) whether that be jeans, a short dress, a headscarf etc. One of the greatest benefits of living in this country is the freedoms that we enjoy! If these freedoms are so great, then we should not need to go compromising the freedoms of people with different cultural backgrounds. If our freedoms make us happier, then hopefully other cultures will follow our example, but that is their choice, not ours.

I do draw the line at giving any special significance to religious beliefs over other beliefs though. Eg. If security demands that people remove headgear at an airport, then that should apply to everybody. Religious should not automatically mean special or allow for exemptions.

Hmm evangelical, dunno really but on the evidence increasingly.

There were three schools that became two and new staff appointed I thought it might be inexperience that led to the initial assembly but maybe there is a new philosophy. Governors are self appointed so I wouldn't expect them to do much more than rubber stamp chnages but this should have gone to them first and hasn't. Can't be much use if head thinks he can do this iyswim.

"I decide I don't want hairy legs and shave them - but is that really my decision, or is it a choice I have made because I have been "brainwashed" by cultural and social pressure, mainly brought about by a man's idea of beauty?"

I'd say (personally speaking) that it's ALL about societal pressure, possibly stemming from a some sort of natural selection whereby males prefer more 'female-looking' females. So women over the millennia have come to behave in ways and adopt beauty routines which accentuate their femininity.

I'm quite naturally hairy though and removing it is a pain. I think it would be better if society accepted women in their more 'natural' condition!

I'm more concerned that women still seemed to be judged more for their figure, clothes, hair, attractiveness, grooming etc - some jobs where things like heels, make-up, hairstyles are either expected if you want to suceed or actually contracted in.

This concerns me too - it seems to be something that will never go away. I work in a very male environment (only girl) and I witness the behaviour if a young lady comes to visit - she is immediately subject (not to her face of course) judgements on all of those things by the blokes I work with.

I also think we have the issue of certain women playing up to this too, we did have a girl in the office like this but thankfully she's left.

There's definitely more pressure on women to be more attractive to get ahead.

I'd say (personally speaking) that it's ALL about societal pressure, possibly stemming from a some sort of natural selection whereby males prefer more 'female-looking' females. So women over the millennia have come to behave in ways and adopt beauty routines which accentuate their femininity.

I'm quite naturally hairy though and removing it is a pain. I think it would be better if society accepted women in their more 'natural' condition!

Haha definitely :)

'I think it would be better if society accepted women in their more 'natural' condition!'

some societies do, just as in some they prefer their women 'big' and not the skinny waif look we aspire to. Funny old world!

Booteh??

shakes booteh

But i thought it was recommended that muslim women and men remove pubic hair? So it is hardly just a social thing if islam is saying it is best to remove hair that no one but your spouse or doctor is going to see.

Remember watching Miss World years ago and in amongst all the usual contestants was Miss Tonga who was short, chubby, wore a sarong dress for swimsuit and had a short wild afro. It was great.

Interestingly, compliance is also often seen as a 'female' rather than male trait.

I also thought hair removal was the norm for muslims - don't they think it's unclean or something. Had tea in muslim ladies house and this topic came up, she was disgusted to think we had hair 'down there' and yanked my friends trousers down to have look. The look of horror on both their faces was priceless.

Five practices of fitra 1.Circumcision; 2. Shaving pubic region; 3. Clipping nails 4. Cutting mustache short;5. Removal of arm pit hair...7.72.777

so yes it would seem it is the norm to remove pubic hair

Re some societies where men prefer fatter women, I'd hazard a guess that this social trend came about as a result of food scarcity rather than political correctness It makes sense.

I also thought hair removal was the norm for muslims - don't they think it's unclean or something. Had tea in muslim ladies house and this topic came up, she was disgusted to think we had hair 'down there' and yanked my friends trousers down to have look. The look of horror on both their faces was priceless.

brilliant