To think a school can't legally suddenly ban the headscarf for muslin girls!

[Headscarfs123]

So our local catholic school has banned the headscarf this week...disastrous for some of the girls but also against church advice that headscarfs are fine, against DFES advice about consultation and sensitivity to religious groups, against best practice as this type of change should involve the governing body? discriminatory on religious and sexist grounds...Sikh boys can keep their turbans.

Aibu to think that the school is legally in the wrong?

My son isn't segregated. he is in a school that fits his needs. he was in main stream up until year 3 and now is in year 11. He loves his school and is still part of the wider community.

Can i ask you as you say you dislike segregation of all types how that fits in with your muslim beliefs as the quran states

O you who believe! Enter not the Prophet's houses, except when leave is given to you for a meal, (and then) not (so early as) to wait for its preparation. But when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken your meal, disperse, without sitting for a talk. Verily, such (behavior) annoys the Prophet, and he is shy of (asking) you (to go), but Allah is not shy of (telling you) the truth. And when you ask (his wives) for anything you want, ask them from behind a screen, that is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not (right) for you that you should annoy Allah?s Messenger, nor that you should ever marry his wives after him (his death). Verily! With Allah that shall be an enormity.

So if your prophet says the sexes should be segregated ie behind a screen how does that fit with your dislike of ll forms of segregation?

the text is taken from wikiislam so i assume it to be true and not an anti islam myth

that doesn't fit in with the haddiths

Narrated Ibn Abbas: That he heard the Prophet saying, "It is not permissible for a man to be alone with a woman, and no lady should travel except with a Muhram (i.e. her husband or a person whom she cannot marry in any case for ever; e.g. her father, brother, etc.)." Then a man got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have enlisted in the army for such-and-such Ghazwa and my wife is proceeding for Hajj." Allah's Apostle said, "Go, and perform the Hajj with your wife."
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:250

bn 'Abbas (Allah be pleased with them) reported: I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) delivering a sermon and making this observation:" No person should be alone with a woman except when there is a mahram with her, and the woman should not undertake journey except with a mahram." A person stood up and said: Allah's Messenger, my wife has set out for pilgrimage, whereas I am enlisted to fight in such and such battle, whereupon he said:" You go and perform Hajj with your wife."
Sahih Muslim 7:3110

And even if you dont accept the haddiths. How do you tally your non segregation with the fact that when you go to the mosque you as a woman are segregated from the men?

I might dissappear for a while today as i am preparing for my father funeral tomorrow but between cleaning and making beds up i keep poping back.

Coco speaks about religious intolerance, but my main beef with religion is where it is intolerant about gender, sexuality, contraception and abortion- matters which are protected by law in most sensible countries.

No school should be allowed to teach such intolerance as fact, which is really my central concern with faith schools (or indeed regular state schools given the outdated religious requirements) when I say "no school should be allowed to teach relgious doctrine as fact".

The freedom to practise religion is also enshrined in law by the HRA, I have no issue with people going to church/mosque, the ideas they pass onto their children at home, wearing religious clothing (within reason), this being incorporated into school uniform (again, acting reasonably) but what they are taught at school should be factual, and anything which is the subject of opinion or conjecture should be made clear as such - where is falls into any sphere, not just religion but in science, history, english, maths...

Children absolutely should be taught about religion in schools. The Church of England and the Roman Catholic church play a massive role in the history and culture of the UK. But always in a "some people believe" way. Not that will burn in hell for using a condom or sleeping with your wife while she is pregnant, or that gay people are an abomination. But I think it should also be taught with philosophy, so alongside humanism, nihilism, existentialism...

R&P not RE, basically.

But mrs z it is because of its complexity that it is made much more simple in law. There could be women forced to cover their heads, their coverings may be symbolically rich in readings similar and diametrically opposed to yours, there will be women who choose to cover their hair despite family pressure to stay uncovered. However legally we have the right to wear what we want, where uniforms are subject to both consultation and regulation.

Even if though I am uncomfortable with some aspects of head covering I recognise that being an atheist probably skews my ability to really engage with issues related to living within a faith and faith based community group and I absolutely believe that girls and women should be allowed to choose to cover their heads. Freedom of speech and dress gives us strong values especially when people make choices we do not. I would not Be comfortable with a society that doesn't allow forms of dress that often imply religious beliefs, This schools's challenge to this seems to me to show hostility towards these female students who have been put in a difficult situation due to the school's failure to comply with consultation requirements. These girls have effectively been bullied most probably because someone disrespects their faith and their belief. I think that can be a feminist issue too, a largely male senior team, board of governors, male dominated religion dishing out challenge to a group of girls whose faith they don't want to see evidence of. I see bullying and racism in their policy and its method of introduction and see it again in ideas of bigger policy changes that would seek to limit what women choose to wear.

I think this is hair splitting and disingenous to be honest.

This is a gender equal country. Why can't anyone address the following question:

Covering your head disrespects me as a woman.

It's not enough to say "I'm Muslim", in my opinion. This is a society of equal people and that is important. Female equality for some of us is as precious as any ancient religious belief but you seem to think that has no value.

I respect Islam and Muslims. i do not respect this hangover of cultural misogyny I think it is nothing to do with the true religion of Islam. I think it's regressive and it's to do with the infantalising of and indulgence of the men in Muslim cultures. Believe me, I've seen it. I worked in Pakistan in a school and the boys were all treated as gods and the girls like servants. It's hard not to see a correlation between that worship of the male child and the lower status of the female in the culture, regardless of how many female Muslim doctors and lawyers there are. I have no problem with Islam. I have a massive problem with the veil. To see them as the same thing is, I genuinely believe, a child's approach to religion, not an adult's.

But the question for me would be

How does forcing a woman not to cover respect us as women?

It doesn't.

I am not disrespected by women covering hair.

You could argue that the French position is that our equality of gender in a secular state is more important than any religious custom. And that needs to be respected by anyone who wants to be part of our nation.
Why can't Islam show respect for us and make this sacrifice? I think everyone would gain and Islam could become stronger and more mature and play its part in the world without appearing medieval and at times ridiculous.
It's a huge act to cover your head, a massive public act, it is a message to your society that women are marked out. I genuinely think that it is arguable that this is a morally objectionable act. I don't blame anyone for doing but I can't see anything but cultural misogyny backing it up.

I bet there are countless other things in the Qu'ran as in the Bible which have long been thrown out as unworkable. I hope this gets thrown out too. I respect all Muslim women as equal to me but let them show it by uncovering their heads and bringing their girls up to be proud and equal.

And happily you can think and wear and argue what you want. And happily others can do the same.

There is a fundamental contradiction in seeking to ban something that you see as oppressive.

And MrsZ, it disrespects me as a person to say you should be allowed to see a part of my body that I would prefer not to have on display. Why should I not have the right to expose or cover myself, within the law, as I choose? I can be proud and equal and not expose my hair (it's not that interesting, and in pretty much all British weather it looks a hot mess without a cap).

And for the one millionth time MrsZ - it's not only Muslim women who cover their hair. Some women do it to protect their hair from the weather, some do it because of hair loss and scalp issues, some do it as a statement against the modern fashion industry while some think it's fashionable. Why should dictate what other people do with their bodies? Are you going to tell (typically older) women with rain covers hair bonnets that they are being disrespectful? You seem to think that removing a head covering is going to make a change within a community that you've seen has issues in, but surely it is far more complicated than that. Why fight and blame the women when the target should be the surely men?

For those who cover their heads / wear veils, how do you genuinely feel about women who don't? I think part of the reason that many non-Muslim women feel a bit uncomfortable about it is that they imagine that a) Muslim men are looking at them thinking they have 'loose morals' (or whichever term you prefer) and b) Muslim women are secretly a bit disapproving as well.

I'm not saying that this is the case, and obviously one person can't speak for all, it's just something that occurred to me as to why some people might be uncomfortable with it.

But I do absolutely agree that it's pointless and oppressive to impose a legal ban.

I really am not bothered about uncovered heads.

I must (and I expect I could be flamed for this but will be honest) admit to being to disliking skimpy clothing. As part of our professional training we were told that appropriate clothing policy or females was 'no cracks on show' either at the front or the back. I sometimes wish that this advice had been imparted to some of my children's teachers but keep all these thoughts private and dont pull disaproving faces.

Mrszimmerman, you are being greatly disrespectful towards me, by telling me my free choice is not a choice at all.

I believe hijab is perscribed by God.

Religion is a very personal thing, I am no judge whatsoever as to how religious anyone is. I have nothing to do with other peoples religiosity or lack thereof. I am only concerned with being the best I can be and fulfilling my duties. Muslim women who don't wear hijab are not my concern, I do not feel superior or inferior to anyone, I have no idea what status I have in front of God.

Why should I not be allowed to choose my dress as you do?

What makes you so much better than me, why do you feel so superior to me that you feel you have a right to dictate to me how I dress when I would never do the same to you?

What makes you think your views are superior to mine?

Why are you so dismissive about my choices? What makes you think you are so much more intellectually superior that I am too stupid to make my own free choice?

I was married for a long time to a hugely abusive man, he hated that I wore hijab, he'd try and get me to remove it when introducing me to his friends, he revelled in showing me off like some performing circus thing.

Hijab is my choice, I am not breaking the law. I am British and I am fully integrated in British society, I have the respect and friendship of my peers.

Being forced to dress according to other peoples views is opressive to me. Being told what to wear is opressive to me, being told I am too stupid to make a free choice is actually deeply offensive.

What's the difference between you and everyone else trying to force your views on how Muslim women should dress and those regimes you despise so much for opressing their women by dictating what they wear?

I'm going out.

more applause for fuzzywuzzy!

I'll catch up with the rest later, but this struck me right off.

MistyValley asks 'For those who cover their heads / wear veils, how do you genuinely feel about women who don't?'

Riveninabingle, says "Doesnt bother me. Why should it?"

fuzzywuzzy says "I believe hijab is perscribed by God."

Surely if you believe that god, the creator of the universe, the source of all morality, says you must cover up then you must despise those who do not. How could not mind? or conversely if you don't think it matters much how can you claim to believe that it's an instruction from god

Onager, because I believe there is no compulsion in religion.

I also fully understand that my beliefs are not yours and your beliefs are not mine.

There's a story we were told as children, a prostitute goes to heaven for one small act of kindness & a woman who has spent her entire life in prayer goes to hell for one act of cruelty.

In the face of which I really am in no position whatsoever to judge others when I know if I am judged for all my sins I am utterly lost.

The face a person presents to the world is not necessarily the one God will judge.

Hadith:

"When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."

"Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to." (in reference to the active and passive partners in gay sexual intercourse)

Allah says: ?We also (sent) Lût: he said to his people: ?Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds? [Sûrah al-A`râf: 80-81]

?Whomever you find doing the act of Lût?s nation, then kill both parties.? [Sunan al-Tirmidhî]

fuzzywuzzy. Can you tell me where you stand on homosexuality? As we see that stuff prescribed by God is so important to you and couldn't possibly alter with time.

To be honest Muslims, and all religious folk, that stand behind such scripture to allow these sorts of views offend me. So is God wrong about homosexuality?

Wear the hijab or don't, it's neither here nor there to me. But don't expect no wider response and ramifications for this display of tribalism. Don't think it doesn't prevent integration between communities because it does. As I can see when driving through my diverse city, pockets of people everywhere and no real mixing in any meaningful way. It's more noticable when tribes wear garments that place them in a tribe, too. Personally I am less likely to warm to people who are deeply religious as we have not much in common, and I'm sure they feel the same way.

But why would God prescribe an item of clothing if it's not important?

(not that if everyone had the same uniform there wouldn't be tribalism, just not so obvious which means more and more people find themselves needing to belong to a tribe)

Posie my views on sodomy are that the act is not allowed in Islam.

But what does that have to do with my headscarf?

If you were to ask a group of Muslim girls about what they think about wearing the Hijab 99.9% would say they love wearing it. It is hard for people of other faiths (or no faith at all) to understande why this is so important to them. I would rather mu daughter wear the Hijab and be modest than have her wearing mini-skirts ect ect.
I think (and I know I'm treading on dangerous groung now) that many so called Christians, Catholic or other, have lost that sense of living by their faith. For example you would not find many if any (practicing) Muslims living together/having chilldren before marriage.