To think a school can't legally suddenly ban the headscarf for muslin girls!

[Headscarfs123]

So our local catholic school has banned the headscarf this week...disastrous for some of the girls but also against church advice that headscarfs are fine, against DFES advice about consultation and sensitivity to religious groups, against best practice as this type of change should involve the governing body? discriminatory on religious and sexist grounds...Sikh boys can keep their turbans.

Aibu to think that the school is legally in the wrong?

In real life Posie there's a very good chance you'd like me. I tend not to subject people to religious diatribe & my friends have never told me I'm too stupid to choose what to wear.

Most people don't know I'm religious, one guy told me he thought I wore a headscarf because I was bald (yes really!).

I also bake amazing cakes!

Hee Hee

Someone asked me if I was a Nun when I said I was Muslim she went ohh.

"For example you would not find many if any (practicing) Muslims living together/having chilldren before marriage."

I would not go into this Xanthius if I were you. There is plenty of evidence what "some" "so-called" (practicing) Muslims get up to before marriage...

if it were an arbitrary rule such as 'always wear a special hat so that people know you are Muslim' I could see it, but the implication here is that you must cover your face because it is indecent/shameful not to.

I would therefore expect anyone who trusts god's judgement to feel it was shameful - perhaps even equivalent to a man exposing himself in public.

Xanthius, your post was fairly tactful then, but you are saying that not wearing the Hijab is immodest yes?. I'm not complaining. It seems sensible to me that you would feel that way given that you believe your god said so.

I know, I was one of them!!

I just think that everyone picks and chooses what they want from religion. Honestly anyone that has views upon homosexuality aside from 'it's up to whoever to do whatever they want, consenting adults and all that' along with creationists are not people I find it easy to associate with, and people that hunt for fun.

No, I'm not saying that. I don't wear the Hijab (I did but was subject to too much abuse, eggs flour...not nice) I'm just trying to note the two extremes.

Why are we so concerned if teenage age girls want to wear a scarf or hijab - as long as it is their choice and they aren't forced to. Why are we not as concerned with young girls feeling pressure to wear make-up, heels or revealing clothing. If I had a daughter I might rather she wore a scarf on her hair rather than the way some girls dress for school.

"In real life Posie there's a very good chance you'd like me."

fuzzywuzzy

You're so right, I think we would ALL really get on.

begony.....I don't think any of us are not concerned about young girls in make up and heels....

fuzzywuzzy, i don't believe the hijab is prescribed by the God of Islam. I think that is a cultural remnant.
I think it is a symbol of female inferiority loved by cultures where there is a good deal of misogyny (as our culture has too but expressed in different ways).
I don't think I'm better than you or know more than you. I am simply a free and equal woman born in a free society not a religious state. I think wearing a gender specific symbol is slightly undermining to my gender equality and the equality enshrined in our law and our modern traditions.
Head covering in the rain or in church services is not a potent symbolic religious cultural gender specific statement.
I think you are as equal as me. I've never said head covering should be lllegal. I said it makes me ashamed of myself, my gender and our society with all it's differences. I'm also ashamed by all kinds of excesses and child abuse (which happens in Muslim and non Muslim homes and countries) pornography and wherever women are treated as inferior or used as objects.
Of course you have the right to cover your head. But you are not an island when you cover your head. You comment on all women when you do it, arguably. And I do believe you say something about all of us. It is not a personal act.
I never told anyone to do anything, I just said I think it is regrettable and wish women didn't do it. I think the French are driven by all sorts of racist and obnoxious elements BUT I do think they love and cherish their national traditions. The problem with the hijab is it puts Muslim priorities over the needs of the rest of the group. Multiculturalism should be reflexive shouldn't it?
I'm not telling anyone what to do. I write as one woman to another, I love what I know of Islam, I loved living in Muslim country. I do not want London to become a Muslim city though with my gender increasingly covering their heads. It feels genuinely wrong to me. I do not disrespect you, I disagree with what you think is just a personal act and I think is a public one too that wields a lot of power.

Posie, it's just that we seem to have our own cultural expectations and sexist restrictions but instead we seem so obsessed with a headscarf and what this means in terms of restrictions and pressure from a male dominated society such as Islam. Someone said about why wear such an impractical, cumbersome item as a scarf or hijab - only expected for women. What does our own society expect for women - high heels, pretty feminine clothes, make-up and fancy hairdos - very practical and leads to women being pressurised to fit this ideal and conform - seems to be all about appearance and looking attractive while our young girls strive to be wags and the likes of TOWIE. I'm really not sure which one is more damaging but it all seems a bit hypocritical to think that muslims wearing scarfs must be deluded, controlled and brainwashed - unlike us of course.

Well the first girl has been sent home from her A level lessons for refusing to remove her scarf. The school hasn't said anywhere that this is actually a new policy and hasn't written to parents etc. afaik this girls parents haven't been contacted. Outrageous, unethical and from a school that has had many a headscarf scarf wearing pupil.

The girl was very upset. I hope they are forced to change their policy and apologise. What a horrid start for her year 13.

Hi, felt compelled to join in and am still astounded at this forum which somehow went from hijab and rights to homosexuality and islam's stance on it!

I cannot believe the same women who shout about freedom are just as quick to shoot down the hijab wearer and give many many excuses all somehow explaining that the woman is oppressed!

I challenge each MNetter who opposes the hijab, to wear it (as a free choice of course!)
Then tell me how oppressed you feel because society does not want you to wear it. Then tell me the reality of gender equality - you are equal as long as your hair is not covered, but as soon as it is, then society has a million opinions and explanations. If the women opposing the hijab are really strong-minded, then please wear the hijab for a while. Endure the ignorance of the masses, the spitting, the name-calling, having things thrown at you. Then move over to the next population group, who will tell you that overnight you have all of a sudden become oppressed and you must remove it so that you can become liberated again! The hijab is not oppressive to the wearer, but for some reason our society feels that it can oppress the woman wearing it! Is gender equality only for women who don?t wear scarves? So if you chose to wear a skirt or trousers, does one choice or other make you less equal? You call this country gender equal?.switch on the TV, look at adverts and then tell me about gender equality!

Why would my scarf prevent integration/mixing? What is your definition of integration/mixing? Why does my scarf bother you so much when I am not oppressed thank you very much? If you really want to know me, then all you have to do is talk to me. You will be amazed at how strong-minded, 'gender-equal' and ?westernized? most young women who wear the hijab are.

Back to the topic?.

headscarf123, are you hesitating in naming the school and it's location for any particular reason? I must say I am surprised at this ban and want to know more.

I wasn't aware that the choice was headscarf or hooker heels. It's not the expectations in this house. It's a rather tired comparison, really. One is a religious requirement, for the majority, and the other is the cultural expectation for some. And even then the make up, heels and tight jeans is not something that I haven't often seen with a head scarf.

BuzNuz. The 'jump' was about the word of God, simple jump really and relevant.

Didn't want to name the school as hoped it would all be sorted with minimal fuss, don't think the children benefit from press involvement for example. Also there hasnt been a letter home specifically about the ban, just a uniform code that no longer has headscarves in school colours and mentions only school scarves and no other scarves.

They seem to be bringing it in quietly and I thought if questioned may back off due to lack of consultation,governor involvement etc however my daughter says one teacher said it was an old rule just being put in place. Doesn't seem likely as it isn't in literature and there have been girls in scarves there for a long time. The girl sent home yesterday is a year 13 so was on site last year with her scarf. The lack of consultation with parents, the way, as far as i understand it, the ban was read out then the head visited girls in class and took them in small groups to say scarves off or home, the sending home of a year 13 pupil for wearing her scarf seem horrible. The pressure has all been on the girls some of whom haven't talked about it at home as they don't want fuss- not many teenage girls want to be at the centre of an event like this. The pupils involved are ones who haven't been in trouble really probably not prepared to be sent to the head who they must feel isn't very sympathetic to them.

Anyway suppose my concerns don't matter as if I am correct it is all going to come out somewhere eventually. The school is St joseph's catholic school in Bradford,the sixth form attached is St benedicts and that is the section i get my info from. Don't know lower school parents anymore.

Now Bradford, there's a place. I've taught in an all boys 99% Muslim boys school there and some big 'white' schools, girls disappeared to get married over the summer and accepted having arranged marriages. I think of all places no headscarves in school could be a great thing.

Still think they could probably phase it in, and they havnt' banned it, but may be thinking of doing so for future pupils and so it's not in the uniform list.

They have told students to remove scarves and sent a girl home for wearing one, how is that not a ban?

Schools should model respect and care, these girls have been treated badly and in a way that the other pupils see as bullying. What anyone thinks about the relative merits if headscarves is to this largely irrelevant. This is about all sections of a school community getting the same care and respect with due regard for established protocols when change is implemented.

And it isn't no headscarves in schools, it is in one school that having made clear its lack of respect for the LEA and DFES policies on religion and uniform is possibly trying to reduce its numbers of Muslim students. It has been so hostile to these students and I expect teachers to be caring towards their students. Even if staff simplistically believed that eliminating headscarfs would reduce problems within the Muslim community then they should still have the greatest care for the pupils in their care and show due respect for relevant protocols.

Year 13 is 17 or 18 years old isnt it? So hardly a child, I think that decision is very unfair.

If at 17 or 18 had been at work (not sure if that is legal anymore, do they all have to be in education or training till 18 now?) and had been employed wearing a headscarf and then was sent home for wearing one it would be discrimination, why should a school act any differently?

Well I suppose however you look at it they are saying 'No Muslim girls allowed here'....as no Muslim girl of sixth form age is likely to remove her headscarf for school. Although here it is not uncommon for girls only to wear them at school and removing them even to walk home.

The Head sounds to be the root of the problem. Sending a year 13 year old home is ridiculous.

The only st josephs in bradford that google throws up is an all girls school so i dont get the reference to sikh boys
The sixth form is not part of st Josephs as i have looked at their site. Is it seperate to the school?

The sixth form is shared there is also a boys school.

Wait a minute. This school is private, isn't it? And it's a girl's college.....may have links with a boys school, but it's not a boys school. And if a Catholic college wishes, judging by a pretty strict uniform policy, that girls must look the same then fair enough.