to say that England is anti-intellectual?

[ChickenLickn]

If you are bright enough to do a degree, you get treated worse than the unemployed - no income, but you dont get state support, you get DEBT.

And then you get taxed an extra 9% of your earnings for practically the rest of your life - even if you have below average earnings.

People then end up having to lie that they dont have qualifications in order to get jobs!

WTF?

Oh, I'd recommend doing a science degree. Because with that you can still go into financial modelling, accountancy etc if you decide you don't want to stay with science

I'm not sure where you get your figures from but that doesn't sound like what an average first-degree chemist would end up on to me.

What OhTheHuge said.

WellOhTheHuge all I an say is that I ahve not encountered that attitude either here in Wales or back home in England. Maybe I am just lucky, council house but full of books and respect for history and culture. Married into a similar family.

Although it's true that anyone too big a fan of Xfactor and Big Brother 757 (or whatever series it is) would find me terrribly boring anyhow. Thank bloody goodness.

I think elitism has a place alongside access; elitism for all those who are capable and not those whose parents cottoned on early on about X or who could provide Z. But e;eitism is often used an excuse to deny people help; the number of people complaining about the autism support team at university as if it means we are facillitating people who can't cope academically, when in fact many of the students are way above average grades.

Also ditching snobbery over professions / non degree quals would be useful to enable this, and frankly it's my experience that comes from people who feel they paid for their child's education so expect more for it regardless of their ability. I could list a fair few famillies like that. The chidlren often drop out then go on to do well in trades, which is treated as a source fo embarassment which is ridiculous. Of my older 2, one is academci, one is not and I will guide them towards what suits and be as proud of their achievements in whatever sector they land in.

The otehr issue is of our own making DH is thriving in his degree but many of thsoe who are not would have been fully equipped with an HND- there isn't one on offer. Although even if it was, I admit my advice to the boys would be if everyone else in a field you want to enter has a degree, get one- why start with a disadvanatge?. Regardless of how needed it actually is for the job.

"It's rooted in the fact that 'elitism' is a dirty word, and in the worship of 'fairness' and 'access' "

That has bugger all to do with dislike of intellectualism! Being intellectual does not come from elitism or priviledge, any more than intelligence does. Restrict access and fairness and you restrict the development of intellectualism.

I don't disagree that there are many careers for which a degree is not the best starting point and some children waste years and money at university because they think it's essential. But that isn't because we are over-concerned with fairness - it's because we suffer from a sort of ignorant snobbery about the value of jobs that don't need degrees.

There is also a problem in thinking that we can only develop intellect in a university. One of the most intellectual men I know is my own father - who was an electrical engineer and acheived his qualifications by apprenticeship and night school. He has the most inquiring mind and the widest knowledge of almost anyone I know.

Bang on Ormirian. Absolutely agree.

I know plenty dull graduates and many intellectual non grads. Just how it is.

I agree with lesley33: IME, England in particular is anti-intellectual.

I'm a PhD student in a humanities subject elsewhere in the UK and my (English) family and their friends are incredibly unsupportive of academic research in the arts. They see academic qualifications purely as a means to making money (many of them have degrees and are in engineering/banking etc.) and consider academia to be entirely irrelevant and insular. I've come across this attitude far more in England than in Wales or Scotland (I have no experience of Ireland).

Also, I certainly don't think that having a degree comes anywhere close to qualifying someone as an intellectual. I'm not sure that a PhD necessarily does, either

He has the most inquiring mind and the widest knowledge of almost anyone I know.

I think this is the crux of it- the issue of the enquiring mind. The pursuit of knowledge/truth is what makes someone an intellectual, not the letters after their name.

I have a degree from the Fen Poly in history, but am definitely NOT an intellectual, even though I am academically able. Since leaving, I can count the history books I've read on one hand. However, I went into a pragmatic career, which I found much more my thing- I like practical application rather than conception/pushing boundaries of knowledge.

YABU.

It's ridiculous to say that we don't value education and learning. I'm definitely from a working class background but my (single) mother made sure that I got a scholarship to a selective school to ensure that I had the best education possible. In turn, my children were read to early on, taken to museums and galleries - lots are very affordable and accessible to everybody (in Nottingham at least). I will expect them to go to university unless they choose to learn a trade. People from all walks of life in England prize learning - the sad thing is, sometimes people without much of a formal education can see themselves as thick. That bothers me more than 'intellectuals' feeling unloved!
Lots of people like literature, art, classical music AND watching the X Factor/reading trashy celeb mags - is that a bad thing?
I really dislike the idea that we should all be fawning over an intellectual elite - especially imagining the type of person who would consider themselves part of such an elite..........

'Being intellectual does not come from elitism or priviledge, any more than intelligence does. Restrict access and fairness and you restrict the development of intellectualism.'

I totally agree. But I think sometimes people mistake academia for privilege - lots of people assume that if you're not from the 'right' background you won't fit in, or won't get into, certain universities. My dad is from a solid working class background, first in the family to go to university, etc. - but he got to do that because people told him there was nothing to stop someone like him getting more formal education than his parents had got. It's not that formal education equates to intellectualism, but that I think there is a bit of a culture of being suspicious of both.

it does a bit though. The richer your background, the more priviliges you enjoyed...the far likelier it is that you had the upbringing necessary to achieve at all.
Of course some children from poorer backgrounds get to go on to higher education, but its less likely and its harder. And thats only going to get worse.

We don't value education nearly enough, and we certainly don't value intellectualism. Its a dirty word.

But milsean - that was the point I was making. Access to priviledge should not dictate access to education. That is something worth striving for. That everyone with the ability to benefit from education get it, but that doesn't mean everyone has to. DS1 wants to be an engineer - he's clever enough but it won't benefit him to go to uni when he can get where he wants with an apprenticeship.

Hmm ... is that not education, rather than intellectualism, milsean?

IMO there is a big difference between someone who's been well taught and someone who has a real love of learning and an intellectual kind of mind.

And that you can be intellectual without going to university. The ability to use your brain is not the preserve of the highly educated.

x-post with LRD!

Of course you can, but do you not think they tend to go together more often that not? That those with inquiring minds will want to and try very hard to access higher education? And that you are more likely to have formed that inquiring miind as a consequence of genes and/or upbringing, which means a inheritable affect which works in conjunction with material priveliges?

I say that as someone who worked very hard to return to education as a mature student, for those exact reasons. As did my father who acquired several degrees, a masters and a PhD. And we are all still as poor as church mice!

I think we're saying the same thing Ormirian? Everyone should be entitled to education (not necessarily university or academics), but education doesn't create intellectuals.

Cross-post - yes, I agree, often people who really want something will go for it, and I'm sure some people who have a tendency towards being intellectual have that stifled/encouraged by their upbringing. But if they don't have that tendency, all the education in the world won't give them it, I think.

Oh I don't know, it might easily stimulate those who didn't know what they were interested in until they tried. Some people are late bloomers educationally. I'm not sure its entirely an innate prediliction.

But my thinking is that if we valued intellectualism more as a society, more people would be interested in learning. It would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Imagine if our 'slebs were poets and artists and astro-physicists instead of lip-synching gyrating pop singers! If we had another renaissance and our superstars were inventors and artisans and scientists.....

But instead what we have is an "en-darkening", a race to the bottom, a triumph of mediocrity and a sneering distrust of smart people. Welcome to the 21st century!

Oh milsean, your last post is music to my ears! But I don't think it's getting worse so much, simply that our adoration of the facile and populist is made more glaringly obvious by our current media.

it is a chicken and egg thing. Intelligence is seen as the preserve of the 'officially' educated. Education past school age is seen as the preserve of the 'posh' or wealthy. Hence intelligence being something that comes with money. So FE is now seen as step towards bettering yourself socially - a bit like having the right trainers Ideally I want my children to carry on 'educating' themselves their entire lives - not just in a small period of time after school and before work.

Thats why LLL (Life Long Learning) should be a real goal. It should be everyones goal. It certainly is mine .

It depresses me that so many young people seem only concerned with what courses are marketable, what will make some money. Why aren't more people learning just for the love of it? Its so sad.

Education is everything, education is the silver bullet. If we educated our children far better maybe we would instil the goals of LLL in them.

Mizk - Nottingham has had a number of museums closed down in the last few years as have most Cities outside of London. At the same time many Local Authorities are openly questioning the value of libraries. Hardly supportive actions of authorities that value learning for its own sake.

Second that Lesley. Council musuems and art galleries along with libraries are well and truly screwed right now. Arts and heritage are never prioritised in times of recession. Our local heritable museum service has been effectively mothballed meaning that over 10,000 school children each year will lose out on access to the collections and educational support sessions that were previously provided.

If you want to see what a society values, look who the society's heroes are:

• footballers
• WAGs
• pop singers

Hardly bastions of intellectualism, and the one who's been trying to expand his mind (Joey Barton) is mercilessly teased and made fun of.

We celebrate mediocrity How else can you explain Big Brother etc

But you could look at that cosmologist (whose name escapes me but who looks about 12). He has become quite a sleb hasn't he? But maybe that proves the opposite - intellectuals can only be popular when they dumb down