to say that England is anti-intellectual?

[ChickenLickn]

If you are bright enough to do a degree, you get treated worse than the unemployed - no income, but you dont get state support, you get DEBT.

And then you get taxed an extra 9% of your earnings for practically the rest of your life - even if you have below average earnings.

People then end up having to lie that they dont have qualifications in order to get jobs!

WTF?

What about Scotland, Wales and NI? Are they different? Or do you mean the UK?

I don't know what the OP meant, but at least Scotland funds its students better.

I hugely agree that a degree should be quite stretching; I admit to being disappointed that mine was not, until we had a PHd student come in duirng year 1 and year 3 (one for Buddhism, one for Hinduism). Some people kicked off, the students were not hired. I think those that were complaining should ahve been asked to consider whether they suited a degree .

DH's degree OTOH is challenging. And if you do not meet that you bugger off: about half the course this year in fact. he goes back next week, doubts there will be more than about 10 of the original 50 left from what he can see on facebook!

I haven't experienced much anti intellectualism ( not that i would define myself as intellectual but ykwim); this may be perhaps becuase I come from a very WC background where my degree is celebrated.

Although today I enrol for my MA dissertaion (part time so eyar 3 of the MA) and I am beginning to wonder if I might benefit from a bout of anti intellectualism

Wlales hasslightly better fudning for current students, but I mean by a couple hundred not loads.

With new funding system the variability of provision increases hugely I think.

can you guess hte preschooler got the PC?

Wales has slightly better funding

tsk.

I would say, IME, that England is very anti-intellectual.

DH's degree is in a field of electronics engineering.

Mine does train me for a service but something important IMO rather than a money-shuffler (MA is in Autism, can make a massive difference to lives).

Grimma,

As someone with a physics degree who went into finance, I cannot tell you the amount of very highly talented engineers, mathematicians and scientists who are sitting in banks modelling stochastic processes and/or just finding quantitative ways to trade to make money.

The problem is banking is (well, was) portrayed as very glamorous and "the thing" to get into after a mathematical degree. And, of course, the money was potentially 10x what you could earn using your degree directly.

I think the slow death of investment banking should somewhat redress this balance but companies employing engineers and scientists, and the government, need to start valuing these employees more, both financially and by doing good PR and making them feel valued.

Ariesgirl - I think England in particular. Don't know now, but I was brought up in Scotland about 30/40 years ago. Historically there is a radical element in working class Scottish history where education was highly valued for its own sake. Various left wing intellectuals ran classes for working class people whose aim was purely about education. And although my parents were purely educated, they hugely valued education for its own sake.

I don't know enough to say what the culture is in Wales and Ireland, but I don't think when people are saying England on this thread, they must mean UK.

In an ideal world intellectual pursuits would be valued and respected...but the difficulty arises in the economics.

Who should pay for such things? It is very difficult to tell someone working eight hour shifts in a factory for minimum wage that his taxes should pay for me to study the early romantics.

You get what you value - the UK pays scientists and engineers relatively poorly and accountants, lawyers and bankers relatively well

incorrect. typical accountancy salaries vary between 15-35k - . banking..similar - Branch manager salaries are very low at perhaps 17k. law - actually starts much lower (eg paralegal, ambulance chasing solicitor) at 12k up to maybe 50k ..

who are you comparing to believe this?

My sister bangs on about 'how much i could earn as an industry scientist' (ie a higher value than 35k!)

Eggy - I think many people have no real idea of what average salaries are in different industries. People read for example about the very small number of highly paid bankers or lawyers, with no idea that many many people who are for example qualified solicitors, earn nowhere near that amount.

'slow death of investment banking'

i think reports of the death of this sector are, to say the least, highly exagerrated. Investment banking was the cash cow of the treasury for the boom years, and some investment banks are riding the storm well enough. the model may be changing.....but not perishing. the investment wing of the bank i work for is pulling back...but will leap forwards again, no question...

well, if my kids ask me 'should i do a science degree or an arts/accountancy/economics one' - i'd say on the money side do science every time. unless they are asking about PPE at Oxford.

larry - I don't think so. I think there's a difference between being bright and being intellectual (and also a difference between intellectual studies and being an intellectual). I have never met anyone who'd say they were 'an intellectual'. I know I said to grimma it depends how you define bright - well, I'd say 'bright' to me means being quicker or more able than the average at something. Lots of people will be bright in one area and another. Why pretend they're only average? It's depressing.

eggy - interesting you say, that, someone mentioned the other day she had a PhD grant for science of 18k pa tax free. More than a bank manager, and perhaps it should be!

Eggy,

I know many people in I.Bs. The combination of 50%+ of bonuses deferred and paid in stock (which is currently declining at pace), 50% tax on higher earnings and higher capital requirements are killing I.B as a cash cow. Most people I know are either hanging on by their fingernails or hoping for a nice redundancy package.

The problem is that when you take the leverage away I.B is just not (even nearly) profitable enough to justify the compensation people expect for staring at several screens for 10+ hours per day.

Shareholders have had negative returns from banks for 15+ years now and minimal dividends and are getting tired of it. They just will not put up with banking excesses. Couple that to hostile governments and the I.B slow death will happen. Of course a core will be left but it will probably end up looking like the finance world pre big bang.

who are you comparing to believe this

I did note, once I graduated with my MSc, that the posh bits of the UK are not full of engineers and scientists. They are, however, full of accountants, lawyers and bankers.....

I think many people have no real idea of what average salaries are in different industries

Oh, I think they do, and make career decisions accordingly.

Cereal The comedy prom was fantastic fun and certainly not anti-intellectual. The idea that you can't have fun with classical music, or that the Proms need to be only about serious classical music is silly. Dismissing comedy as pandering to those who aren't intellectual kind of only supports the stereotype, doesn't it?

Wales has long ahd a culture of education; think all the nurses and teachers of the 60s. It was always viewed as an escape from mining towns, and I think still is by many, certainly a great many of the people where I studied were from the same WC background as me but back home I was an anomally for having decided to study at HE.

I don't mind having to pay for my degree, i just think of it as an extra tax on priveledge received. However I worked for years in shitty jobs long before minimum wage, and never minded that other people benefitted either.

I resent that people who got their education for free voted for me to have to pay for mine but only in a that's a bit obnoxious way, rather than resenting the cost of mine if that makes snese?

the career salary bump of a chemistry degree is something like £80k more....lifetime average...physics maybe £100k....

there is an element of rarity value ...many disciplines filter into FS jobs, only scientists can stay in science.

worra..so you are comparing only those bankers et al that have 'made it' with your general aquaintance in science....

the stats on this one are clear on the lifetime salaries though. science graduates do better.

But why has it suddenly become necessary to have a comedy prom?

I agree that England is anti-intellectual. It's rooted in the fact that 'elitism' is a dirty word, and in the worship of 'fairness' and 'access' while denigrating the achievements of an exceptional few as probably down to advantages in their upbringing. There's a pervasive sense that aspiration is some kind of class treachery, achievement is down to luck or wealth, and anyone who reads books or - god forbid - takes an interest in the accumulated riches of 1000-odd years of English culture is a snob, a boffin or a pretentious wanker.

The current HE situation is a symptom of this, not a cause. Mediocre, expensive degrees for the many rather than high-quality, free ones for the few. Perish the thought that we might nurture an elite - instead we sneer and try to shoot it down at every turn.

There is huge variation in accountancy,legal and banking salaries so hard to generalise

eg

Equity Partner at Big 4/Magic circle firm= £500k plus (£1m plus for senior partner)
Certified Accountant working for small company/public sector = £30k

Similarly banking.

Head of Trading at Bulge Bracket IB= £10m plus
Branch manager of HSBC in Luton= £35k

I think you may be right but I am not sure that the cost of getting a degree is an indicator of that.

I am also not convinced that getting a degree is necceesarily an indicator or a great intellect