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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to say that England is anti-intellectual?

132 replies

ChickenLickn · 12/09/2011 21:02

If you are bright enough to do a degree, you get treated worse than the unemployed - no income, but you dont get state support, you get DEBT.

And then you get taxed an extra 9% of your earnings for practically the rest of your life - even if you have below average earnings.

People then end up having to lie that they dont have qualifications in order to get jobs!

WTF?

OP posts:
MaMattoo · 12/09/2011 22:49

The rate at which we are going...you don't have to be smart to get a degree..no. Just rich.

GrimmaTheNome · 12/09/2011 22:53

Why does there always have to be a rush to insist that anything educational at all is really nothing special?

Was there?

Education is valuable. Vocational and/or 'intellectual'. I tend to agree with both the OPs title and OP content, but as two issues.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 12/09/2011 22:59

I felt as if there was, grimma. I think that saying you don't have to be smart to get a degree is pretty much saying it's nothing special. Not because I think being smart is the be all and end all, but because the comment implies that anyone who values degrees is wrong.

DrCoconut · 12/09/2011 23:01

I know when I did my degree I envied people on income support because of how much money they had. I was totally skint and since I had a young child I was not spending it on partying but on childcare, rent etc. I understand there are a lot more grants and bursaries for certain groups now that I just missed. I didn't get childcare help until my final year. As for the university of life crap comments that you hear, designed as a put down to students, a friend of mine ended up returning it with "yes that's where you end up if you're not brainy enough for a real university"!

Milsean · 12/09/2011 23:10

Degree = being an intellectual? Um, no. You don't need a highly developed intellect to do a degree.

I do think England is on the whole anti-intellectual, but that has nothing to do with your point. Whatever that is exactly.

NormanTheForeman · 12/09/2011 23:14

Tchootnika, I agree with you, but think that it is even more the case now than it was 30 years ago when I was at University. Everything now also seems more finance-driven (value for money etc) rather than looking at the value of education in other terms.

But I think this holds for many other areas of life. For example, in the health service it is all now about value for money, saving money and doing everything as cheaply/quickly as possible, rather than saying what is the way in which we can give the patients the very best service.

Whatmeworry · 12/09/2011 23:32

England doesn't strike me as any more anti intellectual than any European country Ive been to, or the US - but it is more anti technology / science than any of them.

GrimmaTheNome · 12/09/2011 23:39

but it is more anti technology / science than any of them.

Yes and no. Last time I heard the stats we were still publishing a disproportionately large number of papers. High nobel prize count.

But scientists are undervalued and underpaid - you have to do it at least partially for love. Too many of our once world-leading science-based industries have been frittered away by the bloody short-termist financial parasites (RIP ICI)

cornsylk · 13/09/2011 00:18

'bright enough to do a degree'
I don't think you need to be 'bright' to do a degree. Committed to your study is important, but bright...not necessarily.

LRDTheFeministDragon · 13/09/2011 00:23

Depends what you think of as 'bright'. I think it gets underused and lots of people will insist they're not bright when the have very clear talents. It's a pity. It's much more socially acceptable to say cheerfully that you're a practical person, for example.

Andrewofgg · 13/09/2011 06:49

LRD No offence intended! OP reminded me of this bit of not very PC verse from an earlier generation and I couldn't resist . . .

TheBride · 13/09/2011 06:58

I think the west in general is quite anti-intellectual. There is a culture of underachievement in school where is it uncool to be bright or to be seen to work hard. People boast that they're "rubbish at maths" (although interestingly no-one seems so keen to brag about being illiterate) In Asia the opposite is true - there's a kind of "geek chic".

larrygrylls · 13/09/2011 07:02

LRD,

Applying words like "bright" or "intellectual" to more and more people devalues their currency. Universities should be celebrations of those with particular intellectual talent, rather than a way to pass three years partying (although nothing wrong with the latter).

I enjoy going for a 10k run but I would not expect to get into an athletics team or athletics coaching. I do, however, enjoy seeing talented athletes. In the same sense, we should celebrate the really bright amongst us rather than talent is somehow evenly spread if only we looked hard enough for it. It ain't...and wanting to make it so will never make it so.

Personally, I feel that the top 10-20% should go to Unis and the rest pursue some sort of vocational qualification, or go straight on to work. Those 10-20% should be eligible for loans or even non repayable grants for the truly needy.

larrygrylls · 13/09/2011 07:05

Andrew,

Are we really needing to apologise for everything written by "dead white men". Certain feminists would like to make the 60s (70s?) year zero and believe nothing intellectual of value occurred before then, due to discrimination. They are less enthused about discarding "dead white men's" achievements in the sciences, especially when they need medical treatment!

ShirleyKnotFrotGrot · 13/09/2011 07:06

I don't have a degree, but I consider myself intellectual (sort of). I love learning new things and I am impressed by very clever people (who are not arses)

So I think YABU.

Dat wot I finks

Whatmeworry · 13/09/2011 07:21

It's interesting to contrast the modern western approach to being intellekshul with the Asian one, where educational achievement Is hugely prized.

I am betting that one is the result of decline, the other of growth.

Andrewofgg · 13/09/2011 07:38

You know what, Larry, although flameproof clothing was invented (by a man?) long ago, on this forum I don't think I'll go further in this debate!

GrimmaTheNome · 13/09/2011 08:06

I am betting that one is the result of decline, the other of growth

In the case of the undervaluing of science/technology and crucially engineering, its the cause not the result.

engineering isn't seen as 'intellectual' - but sure as heck we need people who are both extremely bright and practical with engineering degrees in this country.

lesley33 · 13/09/2011 08:33

I agree that England is anti intellectual and I think this attitude shows up in the general discourse about degrees. Degrees are "sold" as a way of getting a good job, not as a way of expanding your education and being challenged intellectually.

In fact our whole education system is pretty anti intellectual. And I find it really sad that education is generally not valued as a good thing in itself.

larrygrylls · 13/09/2011 08:51

Grimma,

The problem with engineering is that people confuse a mechanic (as in the guy that services your car) with an engineer. Real engineers (with degrees and normally some form of postgrad) are some of the most intelligent (and useful) people that I know. England is a disaster when it comes to science and attitudes towards science.

Whatmeworry · 13/09/2011 08:54

In the case of the undervaluing of science/technology and crucially engineering, its the cause not the result

You get what you value - the UK pays scientists and engineers relatively poorly and accountants, lawyers and bankers relatively well.

NinkyNonker · 13/09/2011 08:54

My husband had this exact conversation with a (very talented) machinist at work yesterday. DH is an aerospace engineer specialising in designing stuff I don't really understand, after a long degree, Chartered Status and a fair few years exp at different levels in different countries. He is very smart without necessarily being intellectual, but it quite practical too.

He wanted to test tolerance on a new prototype so asked the chap in the testing office to run him through the new machine (he has just joined the firm after working elsewhere for a while and stuff had changed) only to be told fairly firmly that degrees were useless, he was proof as he couldn't put it into practice yadda yadda. He's fairly firm in his way so I think an interesting discussion ensued!

Cereal · 13/09/2011 08:55

YANBU. You like trash culture and celeb gossip? You'll be reassuringly acceptable to many people. You like literature, art, classical music? You'll be thought of as "square" and a snob by many people. Even the Proms had to have a "comedy prom" this year, as if the world's best classical music festival was somehow not enough on its own.

The culture of thinking that education is purely about getting a job is insidious too. No education for its own sake - how pointless! - just training to produce things and earn money.

NinkyNonker · 13/09/2011 08:57

And yes Larry, DH gets a certain look about him when Sky offer to send out an engineer to look at the box, or someone asks him what type of planes he fixes, being an aerospace engineer and all. Grin

GrimmaTheNome · 13/09/2011 09:00

Larry - yes, its a national tragedy. Germany highly values professional engineers. Look at their products - look at their exports. They make stuff people want to buy. I get hacked off every time I want to buy a quality product and - with an extraordinarily few exceptions such as Dyson - there is no British option.

Where did we lose the plot and get the idea that we could just shuffle money around and pay each other for 'services'?