to wonder why women who dont like their own lives, seriously consider blaming feminism?

[TheRealTillyMinto]

the other targets for the finger of blame are:

1. global downturn
2. remaining inequality
3. over population
4. capitalism
5. themselves
6. their parents
7. their DP

plus any number of things you care to add to the list....

Also it is illogical to ignore what feminism has given you (the vote, access to DCs after divorce, the right to say no to sex with your DH).

feminism is easy target if put on rose tinted spectacles and look back to an idealised past that never existed. you don?t have the deal with politics, economics or take responsibility for your own life. so AIBU to say blaming feminism for what is wrong in your own life, is just lazy thinking?

Fighting against gender stereotyping is not the same as denying gender differences, though a lot of people don't get this distinction.

Good point, dreaming.

TBH I think I am really talking about some "feminists" I have enncountered (and I have met some Millie Tant types on here) and not "feminism".

A bit like most religions sound fine, until you meet some of the people who purport to be acting in accordance with that religion. Does that make any sense?

Tchootnika I agree with you as well I think the media distortion is a huge problem for feminism, how on earth did it come to be equated with hairy legs and not just basic enlightenment values like equality and liberty?

It makes perfect sense, catgirl.
But I think that as is often the case with religions, the 'believers' who shout the most aggressively don't really understand or represent their cause.

:) you don't. And I agree - the people I have met who have been most millitant in their views seem to have been the furtherest away from what I understand feminism to be.

I am not sure I would call myself a feminist, as whilst I believe that women should have equal rights financially, politically, sexually, socially etc, I think everyone should have equal rights. Maybe I would call myself an equalist? I dont' know

Thank you, dreaming.
Actually, though, I take back 14.55 post:
Of course feminists have had to 'shout loudly' through history.
Not the same thing as 'shrieking' on e.g. MN threads (and also college 'Millie Tants' - IKWYM, catgirl).

Hope that makes sense.

I just watched Made in Dagenham. We all forget, sometimes, how hard it was for women to get what now seems normal. The same pay for the same work.

I think women need to have the same conversation about internalised sexism that Black people have about internalised racism. People know that it exists. That their grandfather might refer to himself as "coloured" and think that young people should "know their place". But, unlike women, young Black people are actively encouraged to know their history and be proud of the struggle. Malcolm X and MLK are heroes. Where are our Pankhurst films and t-shirts? Why does Che Guevara get a poster and not them?

Tchootnika is right. Young women are worried about seeming moany and ugly, hairy and miserable. I am none of the above and feel it helps my cause I also think that being a 'good sport' is valued above all. Not just allowing men to feel OK about going to the strippers but going with them, wearing Playboy logos and so on.

I read somewhere the other day the pay gap between men and women is currently the worst it has been for ages?

I don't think that is for the same work Catgirl. The gap between rich and poor is getting bigger all the time and by our nature we are 'poor' because women are more likely to work part-time, take career breaks and not work in the completely overvalued financial sector and jobs like that.

Catgirl, I hear what you're saying. If you want everyone to be equal, it sounds a bit strange to promote equality for one group in particular.

But please remember that as a group women throughout the world are disadvantaged to men, often massively, and real equality can only come from improving their situation, which requires focusing on them in particular. It's not meant to be exclusionary, it's just practical.

Ah ok MrsTP - I didn't read the article in full - just scanned the headline. I was interested though - just didn't have time at that point to read it. May try and google it

dreaming - I do understand that it would seem a bit silly to actively promote the rights of white, western, middle-class males (not that their rights are any less valid) given that they are not particularly oppressed / disadvantaged atm. I do think some "feminist" are exlusionary, but I also think they are mis-representing feminism when they do

There is an analysis of the data - without bias - here.

The best job for a woman appears to be Company Secretary! You can also do quite well as a Car Park Attendant or Garage Owner :)

Thanks garlic!

There is a 30% pay gap in my role according to that......which sounds about right (as in what I know of my male colleagues pay - not what is acceptable - I would very much like the extra 30% please)

THIRTY PERCENT !!!!

30.4% to be precise :(

Ok so Im not blaming feminism for this but does anyone else think in this era it is very hard being a mother?

The choices to be SAMN or WOHM opened up but now it seems society wants us to all be WOHM

So we had less choice> more choice and no full circle to less choice

The less choice is not only influenced by money (slaves to the wages) but by a growing negativity towards SAHMS; I have seen so many comments on MN for instance about how vital it is to be a WOHM to "set a good example for your children" which imples to me being a SAHM is not a good example.

What has caused this shift?

I have seen so many comments on MN for instance about how vital it is to be a WOHM to "set a good example for your children" which imples to me being a SAHM is not a good example.

IKWYM, Cocoflower, and this can be the sort of didactic 'feminism' that puts some women off... That said, it's also probably a knee jerk reaction to old-style 'a woman's place is in the home' arguments. When there's not decent childcare available to all, it's easy to 'blam' SAHMs - i.e. to believe that if only all mothers were fighting the corner for decent and affordable childcare, then everything might be OK. Obviously this is bollocks, but there you go: it's an argument often made under pressure, I think.

Er, 'blame' (wasn't going for tabloid-style 'blame/'slam' hybrid!)

I think your right. I think it sad people see a SAHM as somehow lesser, I really do.

Everyone should simply do what is right for them and not put down others to justify their choices (though maybe if they have no choice they could be resentful?)

Oh and I see no need for anyone to justify their choices btw either!

I think it's more accurate to say that its hard being a PARENT, full stop. I think bringing up children is tremendously hard work, not so much from the physical point of view of feeding them, playing with them- 'but the whole emotional side. And I think its important to think in terms of PARENTS feeling this pressure- not just mums. Of course, its hugely enjoyable too- which is why most adults have children, and often have several!

Tbh I think society has shifted in a positive way. You hardly ever hear the phrase 'having it all' now, because I don't think women aspire to that concept- or would even find it desirable. Isn't it more the case that men and women have kind of met in the middle, they want to share more similar roles and no longer wish to be pigeonholed as 'provider' or 'carer'. And to me that seems a natural follow on from other shifts in society. We now encourage girls to excel at school, to go to university, enter professions, so naturally they want the fulfilment that actually carrying on and doing those things provides. Equally, we now encourage boys to nurture and develop their caring side- so surely we should pleased when as adults they want to demonstrate that side? Personally I think the shift towards more couples balancing the joys and pressure of nurturing and providing is fabulous. Far rather that than return to the days of expecting the genders to conform to a narrow role.

As for the SAHM/WOHM thing- well I'm convinced it exists on mumsnet only and not in real life. I have certainly never heard anyone go on about it in RL- though obviously when people ask me how I find being a mum and working, I give them an honest answer- its fine. As an observation I think its very rare that anyone starts a thread attacking SAHM, it does seem to be the case more that there Are threads which criticise working mums. And that delightful phrase 'dumping your kids with strangers' crops up with annoying regularity. Like any group, I think working mums will defend themselves if attacked- but I don't see them starting threads saying everyone should work!

FWIW, also, Cocoflower, amongst women of my age, I notice that those who are very anti-SAHM tend to be the daughters of SAHMs (and wealthy fathers). I can't help thinking they have something to prove (- possibly to themselves?), and are unwilling to consider any ambiguities about being WOHMs.
Those of us who were brought up by WOHMs tend to be far more laid back about other women's options, I think (possibly because we saw our mums being sniffed at and wouldn't want to do that to other women?)

When I said mother specifically I meant becuase so many women I speak to say it is hard to know what your "meant" to be. It is damned if you do, damned if you don't.

People do worry what others think of them, their a few who genuinely do not. So women are aware there is someone ready to criticise their choice no matter what it is.

The reason for this I believe is society is still in a state of flux- women in bussiness is very infantile still for example.

I have not done the SAHM thing yet- but plan too soon when dd2 is born. I suppose I am now more aware of negative comments towards SAHM on here,

However a few months ago DH now ex-friend was very aggressive with me. I was working p/t from home with my own bussiness, running the home (which we had just moved into and I had 99% of the work involved in moving home) and looking after dd. He said because I was not working FT out of the home I was a waste of space.

It's just a case if being an easy target, then, Cocoflower.
And because SAHM/WOHM distinction is another way of categorising women, it means mothers will always be in the minority one way or another, therefore always easy targets.