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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder why women who dont like their own lives, seriously consider blaming feminism?

91 replies

TheRealTillyMinto · 04/09/2011 12:11

the other targets for the finger of blame are:

  1. global downturn
  2. remaining inequality
  3. over population
  4. capitalism
  5. themselves
  6. their parents
  7. their DP

plus any number of things you care to add to the list....

Also it is illogical to ignore what feminism has given you (the vote, access to DCs after divorce, the right to say no to sex with your DH).

feminism is easy target if put on rose tinted spectacles and look back to an idealised past that never existed. you don?t have the deal with politics, economics or take responsibility for your own life. so AIBU to say blaming feminism for what is wrong in your own life, is just lazy thinking?

OP posts:
petitepeach · 04/09/2011 13:12

Yes I agree, I can say to my dd's ' you can be anything you like even run the country like Maggie Thatcher' !

Its the truth, the woman had balls aplenty.......

Tchootnika · 04/09/2011 13:14

The ideas that Thatcher 'had balls' and made decisions that were 'too male' are ridiculous.

NO, she didn't 'have balls'; and her decisions were not male or female, they were just bloody awful.
Given that her decisions have had such disatrous consequences for the UK, and that these are so well remembered and still so very much in evidence, I wonder what legacy for feminism her leadership really will have left us. (And that's aside from her destroying of UK education and industry, her revolting maunderings about a desired return to 'Victorian values', etc... I could go on...)

SecretSquirrell · 04/09/2011 13:16

In your opinion, Tchootnika.

Start a thread on Thatch if you like, this one ain't about her!

garlicnutter · 04/09/2011 13:21

I revile every decision Thatcher took. If I'd met her, would not have liked her. Her father brought up to be the son he wished for. BUT she's a woman, the first woman to attain such influential office in Britain, and by doing it she has eased the way for other women: it's no longer "impossible". She is one of the very few people I admire simply for their gender.

tethersend · 04/09/2011 13:26

I think when people blame things such as this on feminism, it always turns out that they're angry because feminism hasn't gone far enough.

And what Hully said. Or something about choice.

Tchootnika · 04/09/2011 13:27

the first woman to attain such influential office in Britain, and by doing it she has eased the way for other women

I'd like to think the same, garlic, but the evidence isn't very strong. I don't see many female party leaders in the UK, and I can't help thinking that Thatcher's legacy has a lot to do with this.
(Disclaimer: perhaps this has to do with main parties' populist approach, but still...)

Oh, and sorry, Squirrel, it looks like the thread's going that way, after all.

dreamingbohemian · 04/09/2011 13:30

YANBU

Women who blame everything on feminism or say 'I'm not a feminist' should go live someplace like Afghanistan, where oppression and violence against women are so severe that increasing numbers of women are committing suicide by dousing themselves with cooking fuel and setting themselves on fire.

Over here, it seems to me that a lot of women buy into a materialist vision of what one should have in life and then blame feminism when they can't get it.

garlicnutter · 04/09/2011 13:33

I guess you can blame feminism for the fact that men will no longer take low-paid, health-destroying jobs just so they can feed their families.

You could blame feminism for advances in technology, as women will no longer scrub their homes by hand with soap.

It's feminism's fault that unmarried men can get laid.

Oh, I'm bored with this now ... Grin

garlicnutter · 04/09/2011 13:34

I think when people blame things such as this on feminism, it always turns out that they're angry because feminism hasn't gone far enough.

Excellent point, tethers, thanks!

EdnaKrabappel · 04/09/2011 13:37

YANBU. Read about this charity only this morning - set up by two of the widows of men killed in the 9/11 attacks. They realised that while their husbands had died (and they were also both pg at the time) that they still had the ability to fend / earn for themselves, in contrast to Afghan widows (amongst others obv) who have no rights to property, money, job etc.

How far-sighted and generous of spirit of these women, when they had more reason than most to bemoan their lot.

Tchootnika · 04/09/2011 13:38

Over here, it seems to me that a lot of women buy into a materialist vision of what one should have in life and then blame feminism when they can't get it.

I think there's sense in that.

Also, though, I think any woman who seriously 'blames' feminism for her dissatisfaction must just not be aware of basic historical facts.
Actually, I'd go further than that: any woman who's not aware of what massive injustices she's missing because of what's been achieved by feminism is clearly lacking in basic general knowledge.
Not sure who or what's accountable for that. Schools' curriculum?

Onemorning · 04/09/2011 13:41

YANBU

I think it's easier to blame feminism for a lack of choices than take responsibility for your own life, or recognise that women and men have to compromise on occasion because they live in the real world.

If you want to stay at home and your DH work that's fine if you both agree to it, but don't blame feminism for the fact that living in the UK might be too expensive for you to do so. I'd like to go to university and study full time, but as I'm the only working adult in my household I study part time instead.

TheRealTillyMinto · 04/09/2011 13:47

i liked the comment on being passive: if we are equal, we have the take responsibility for all areas of our lives, because we are adults. if you dont want to take that responsibilty, you come up with reasons not to (women aren't 'supposed' to do xyz) and dislike the movement that takes away that excuse (feminism).

OP posts:
gaaagh · 04/09/2011 13:50

I think it's a bit simplistic to say "they're just thick" - as tempting as it may be. But I have seen first hand that the group of women I'd consider markedly "unfeminist" or apathetic to feminism tend to be, ahem, shall we say, intellectually not very curious...?

Either because they genuinely don't care (e.g. never seen first hand the effects of anti-feminist practices or felt like they've been a victim or discriminated against personally) or because they just don't want to acknowledge the merit of what feminism has done in the past?

Take my MIL, for example - she's in the second camp - a SHAM to her children whether she wanted to or not (there was never much choice, in that FIL is extremely traditional and doesn't agree with "women being bad mothers by working full-time blah blah blah"). Despite the financial realities of the modern world meaning that their viewpoint about raising children is literally impossible for millions of hard-working mums and dads (that dad = earns enough to support an entire family, mum = stays at home forever), she genuinely believes that "women shouldn't work, especially if they have young children".

This is a woman whose husband hasn't paid into a pension for her, and doesn't have NI contributions in her name. Quite literally, when FIL pops his cloggs, she is going to be financially fucked, as well as practically (she can't drive, has no idea how their bank account works).

To acknowledge that her viewpoint is flawed (and anyway, not financially viable these days, as mentioned above) she will not participate in a reasonable discussion about it.

I've tried. An example was last week.

Whilst watching reality TV, a young mum was trying to get a home build finished before she went back to work from maternity leave. MIL commented "that's just wrong, how can she think about going back to work with a little one just a year old" (the dad worked too).

I was Hmm and said "perhaps they need her income for the mortgage" and left it at that, and I just got "the look" - the one that means "gaaagh is being a trouble-maker again".

MIL has absolutely no intention of verbally agreeing that there is any "right" way than "her" way - to acknowledge anything other than her reality would make her open to recognising the weaknesses of the position she finds herself in. No pension, a scary retirement if FIL dies before her - she cannot acknowledge there's been a flaw in the set up she's been defending for 30 years. To do so would be too scary a prospect.

Hence, it's easier to go with the whole cognitive dissonance thing and pretend it'll all be fine. Typical "bury the head in the sand" stuff.

And that's why she continues to be the most staunchly anti-feminist woman I know - because it exposes the very problems that she faces in her own life, and I suspect she considers any feminist thought on certain life choices to be an attack on her life choices. It's too close to home for her to verbalise thoughts in any other way than the way she does (feminism = bad, the past = good).

catgirl1976 · 04/09/2011 13:58

YNBU, but it is unreasonable to suggest everything about feminism is great and there have been no negative consequences at all, just as it would be unreasonable to say everything about capitalism is terrible and there have been no benefits whatsoever

Tchootnika · 04/09/2011 14:00

Please be more specific, catgirl. Smile

Selky · 04/09/2011 14:03

I'm hard pushed to find anything about feminism that isn't great to tell you the truth.

MmmmmCake · 04/09/2011 14:09

cos we live in a society where we have to blame someone else, because it couldnt possibly be our fault, or the choices we make

dreamingbohemian · 04/09/2011 14:10

Yes catgirl enlighten us Smile

I suspect much of what people consider the negative consequences of feminism are more attributable to societal resistance to feminism.

Georgimama · 04/09/2011 14:26

There is nothing bad about feminism. Please name three negative consequences of feminism catgirl.

Tchootnika · 04/09/2011 14:28

There is nothing bad about feminism. Please name three negative consequences of feminism catgirl.

... or just one? Smile

Mishy1234 · 04/09/2011 14:31

Yes, I agree OP. It's very easy to forget what life really was like for women a couple of generations ago and idealise how it really was.

Things are far from perfect nowadays though and I do see why women can feel very bitter about having to leave their young children in childcare, as their salaries have become a necessity to the household income.

There's no way as a family we can afford to come close to giving our children what we had growing up, even though we are more educated and higher earners than our parents.

catgirl1976 · 04/09/2011 14:34

Feminism being simply equal rights for women (which is my understanding) - then no there are probably no negative consequences.

But there are lots of different feminst views, interpretations and politics and I think some of those can be negative. I think where feminism (or strands of it) doesn't value the differences between men and women it loses something.

donthateme · 04/09/2011 14:42

What aspects of feminism don't value the differences between men and women? I think that needs some explanation. It's too easy to just make a sweeping statement like that. I don't see how feminism doesn't value gender differences.

Tchootnika · 04/09/2011 14:43

I think you're talking about very prescriptive 'feminists'/'feminism', catgirl, and I see what you're saying. But I think don't think that these really represent feminism as a whole.
I also think that right wing media have done a lot to make out that 'Millie Tant' (remember her? Viz)-type 'feminists' are what feminism is about - same as they tried to distort the idea of socialism with ridiculous stories of the 'loony left'.

I suspect that it's these sorts of distortions that put some women off 'feminism' - they think they'll become moany and ugly, and have to go around being hairy and miserable (or whatever).