Who is being unreasonable regarding our nanny - DH or me?

[CinnabarRed]

I got a text from our nanny this morning asking me to call her. When I did she explained that she couldn't come to work on time this morning because her best friend had been assaulted while on a date last night and both Nanny and BF were waiting for the police to come round to take statements. (Nanny had been babysitting BF's children. BF didn't manage to get herself home until 4:30 am, and neither Nanny nor BF had any sleep all night.)

I told our nanny to wait for the police (they weren't done until 11, as it turns out), to take a shower and then to get herself to bed and call me when she wakes up. Apart from anything else, I don't want her looking after my children on zero sleep. I'm 38 weeks pregnant and on maternity leave, so I was perfectly able to take care of my two boys in her absence - although I did have some stuff to do for work which I had to cancel.

DH is furious. He thinks that we shouldn't pay her for today. (Not sure if it makes any difference, but our nanny will be staying with us while I'm on maternity leave. Partly to give the boys some continuity and routine, partly because I suffered from PND after each of the first two were born and partly because our boys love her and we want her to look after all three of them when I go back to work. But money is going to be very tight while I'm not working).

It's true that our nanny has had quite a bit of time off recently, but IMO it's all been reasonable - 3 days off sick, 2 weeks for jury service, and 2 days supporting the same BF, who suffered a very unexpected bereavement last month. I haven't docked her pay for any of the above, although each absence left us out of pocket - it just seemed to me unreasonable for an employer to penalise an employee for jury service or helping her BF.

So I don't want to dock her pay for one day. But DH is digging his heels in. Who's right, MN jury?

I don't really think it's fair to dock her wages now, as you've already told her to go home and get some sleep. But I would have a little word with her and say how you did have some work to do and could see really make sure this doesn't happen again..

Thanks for all your replies. Helpful as always.

To answer a few questions:

I do know for a fact that she was genuinely sick and genuinely had jury service. I absolutely believe her about the BF (on both occasions).

There is a contract of employment between us, and as you would expect she is entitled to paid sick leave under its terms. DH's issue with her sickness is that he didn't think she needed to take 3 days (she had D&V which stopped at midday on day 2, and he thought she should have worked day 3). But then DH is the type who thinks the world stops turning if he takes any sick time off work, so I do tend to discount his views on sickness a little.

Jury service is a nightmare for employers. As an employer you have to tell the court upfront how much of your employee's wages you will stop paying. And you can't know how much the court will pay her back until after the jury service is done. (If a juror is required to attend court for more than 4 hours then get £65 tax free, less than 4 hours then £30, if they're not required to attend at all on a given day then they get nothing at all.)

So I could have told the court I would deduct £650 from her net pay for 10 days of work, but there was absolutely no guarantee that she would actually recover that amount from the court. And then she would have been seriously out of pocket for simply doing her civic duty. As it turned out, she wouldn't have been entitled to anything like as much as £650 because she wasn't required to do 4+ hours every day. I talked it over with DH and Nanny, and we agreed to deduct £300 from her wages (and in the event she was able to claim almost exactly that amount), but our costs for temporary childcare were considerably more.

I'm very interested to here that most of you think that the time for the BF's bereavement should have been taken as annual leave. I've taken that on board.

Today was a different kettle of fish altogether. I don't want to give any details because the guy in question has been arrested and charged. However, I will say that it was less than rape but considerably more than a slap. It was a blind date - think kidnap or false imprisonment and you won't be far off. It sounds absolutely horrific and the local MH team are involved with this guy now as well.

Nanny was obliged to give evidence to the police, and had had absolutely no sleep last night. Again, I can't give details but the BF managed to make a call to Nanny by pressing LNR, and nanny could hear part of what was clearly a very traumatic event.

Yes, she could have come in for 11:30, but frankly she was in no state to work. She was clearly exhausted and distressed.

She is an excellent nanny, and if she wasn't an employee I would count her as a friend. She always goes the extra mile for us if we're unexpectedly delayed at work or something otherwise comes up.

Her one fault, if fault it is, is that she's overly willing to put herself out for friends and does get caught up in this kind of thing.

I think you absolutely did the right thing giving her the day off to be with her friend, particularly as you're at home anyway. It's nice to know that there are people in the world like you who aren't all about money. Yes you made a loss but it was so that a kind person could help her friend. That's worth far more than a day's wages IMO. Don't lose that kindness.

I think you are absolutely morally right and your DH should be a bit ashamed, really. Yes, you probably could have made a fuss. But this woman is looking after your children - I'd be so reassured to know how she acts in a situation like this. It'd suggest to me that if (god forbid) she ended up in an accident or something with your children, she has the strong moral code to go beyond the bare minimum in looking after them.

I agree with LRD & Cailin and reiterate what I said earlier.

I think your DH should bear in mind, that if I had gone through an experience like this and had been unable to come into work after no sleep and giving a statement to the police etc, and my boss was furious about money, I would be looking for another job!

I think DH is being unreasonable, docking her pay because she had to stay for the police. Would he rather the police had pulled up outside of your house and spoken to her there? besides you, her employer, has already given her the time off paid, you cannot go back on the agreement because your husband disagrees. She took the time off, after you told her to by the sound of it.

I think you cannot regard nannying as the same as other jobs in regard to things like this. They are not desk/ factory workers, they care for your precious, vulnerable dcs. Keeping them happy is worth more than a few days pay. Squabbles over things like this can only lead to ill feeling which isnt good for the dcs if the relationship tirns sour or breaks down.

This poor woman was a witness to a horrific crime against a loved one. If that doesnt merit compassionate leave then i dont know what does.

If she is such a good nanny, then you want to keep her. besides if she heard part of the attack, then she would need compasisonate leave herself, I would assume. As for the sickness, if she is still feeling ill even if te d &v has stopped, she was till sick, besides wich what if she gave you all D&V, especially if you are pregnant.
If DH starts making a fuss about her sick leave etc, then she wil have no reason to go that extra mile if you are working late etc.

I'm feeling quite sorry for your nanny. She was right to stay off work for a 3rd day after D&V. Would your husband want to risk your children getting it?

Also, she hasn't been taking time off to go out and socialise - she's been helping a friend who has undergone traumatic life events.

I posted earlier that next time her friend needs general support it should be taken as annual leave - I do stand by that, but an assault is the kind of thing where it is reasonable to expect everyone to drop everything and help. I wouldn't penalise her for being a good friend and decent human being.

She sounds exactly like the kind of person you want to be looking after your dc and perhaps your dh hasn't quite realised how hard it can be to find someone who is exactly what you want. I think you should point out what side his bread is buttered and tell him to leave dealings with the nanny, to you.

Cinnabar, what gets her 'caught up in this kind of thing' is her caring, compassionate, loving, soft side - the exact same thing that makes her a great nanny!

I am also a nanny and also go the extra mile for my work family, never complain when they are late, run errands, get more milk when I see they are running low, tidy the house (even though I dislike doing it and it's not in my contract and they would never dream of asking me to do it!) when I know they have people coming for dinner and a thousand other little things. But it is a two way street, they are so good to me and that is why I don't mind, so I think you are right there and it's not worth rocking the boat over.

Agree with others who have said you told her not to come in, no matter what the reason, so you must pay her for today. However, you could mention in future you won't be able to do that when you are back at work, maybe put it in change of contract when new baby arrives? If you think it is necessary.

I have only stat sic pay in my contract but have never been docked any wages for any sickness/funerals etc in my 6 years with my family (though have only taken 4 sick days in this time-2 told by my bosses not to come in the next day after seeing me ill when they got home in the evening!)

I'm so glad that I've done the right thing today. I would have been if you'd all thought I'd been taken for a ride.

TBF to DH, he's just being overprotective because he knows I'm struggling physically at the moment.

We talked it through tonight and got to the same place as all of you - next time (if there is one) will be annual leave but we'll happily let the previous times stand as paid compassionate leave.

Our nanny really is fantastic, and I hope she'll be with us in one capacity or another for many years. We really got lucky with her. For example, we decided at v short notice to give her a day of extra holiday on Tuesday (the GPs were down and they're about to go on a holiday of a lifetime for 3 months, so they asked if they could have the boys for the day). Nanny said that instead of coming during the day she would babysit for us so we could all go out for a sending-off meal - that was so kind and thoughtful of her.

What a great result. For the record I agreed with you and thought DH was wrong.

One thing though, make sure you are recording everything in terms of days off sickness etc. So often where there is an issue it starts to build up slowly over time and people regret not having kept records from the start.

I'd not pay her for time off to sort out friends problems. I'd only pay her sick pay and you are not obligated to pay sick pay for the first three days of sickness anyway, your only obligation is statutory sick pay which is far less than normal pay.

You didn't have to pay for jury service and she could have got out of that I am sure considering the type of job she does.

You sound lovely, but I'm with your husband on this.

By the by, but someone told me once that if you get called for jury service and you can't/don't want to do it, then if you just ignore the letter you'll never hear any more about it; that they send out loads of letters, that plenty will turn up (from which they'll pick who they deem the most suitable) and that because the letters don't come recorded delivery, that you could just claim they didn't arrive, if challenged. But it would never come to that anyway.

No idea how true that is.

Forgive the slight hijack but Fabbychic and CalamityKate, it's very difficult to get out of jury service - the rules were changed so that essentially of those of voting age, only the mentally ill and convicted criminals are exempt and the courts take it very seriously. It's a pain but necessary.

OP, I'm pleased you and your DH could sort it out.

"She is an excellent nanny, and if she wasn't an employee I would count her as a friend. She always goes the extra mile for us if we're unexpectedly delayed at work or something otherwise comes up."

She goes out of her way for you, and so you go out of your way for her when she needs you to. Sounds like a lovely relationship you have. (I'm not on your DH's side anymore.

On the jury service, she'd already deferred once before she started with us. The court said she could defer for another three months, but that would have meant definitely being on jury service in September, and frankly I'll need her more when DS3 comes than I did back in June/July.

Plus, I think it's important that people do jury service when called - it's part of our social contract as citizens.

I work for one of Big 4 professional services firms, but my bosses have always treated me really well, and I try to emulate their example. They've often cut me slack when I've needed it, even if it wasn't official policy. It shows how important having a good boss is, and although I feel little loyalty to the firm itself I feel fiercely loyal to my bosses as individuals.

Sounds like she's a real find and it's great you have such a good relationship. Just wanted to add, I'm a childminder and wrt the D+V, if children have this then the health guidelines are that they should be excluded for 48 hrs after the last "episode" - used to be 24 but has been increased as it spreads like wildfire among the young. So if she was ill then extra day off was reasonable as you really don't want her to make your children, or you sick.

I think you've handled it sensibly , but I'd agree that future time off outside the bounds of that of the contract will need to be taken as annual leave. You'd probably incur more expense and hassle if you ended up changing nannies.

BTW you could tell your DH that I think she came back a day ealy from her D and V. Kids have to stay off school for 48 hours after the last bout and personally I would have wanted her to do the same.

I think you are right to handle it the way you have done, and that your H should stop throwing his weight about.

Let it go up to now, but probably time for a little clarification chat.

I think you were right, and glad you've resolved it to everyone's satisfaction.

The flexibility and kindness you've shown your nanny will be paid back in kind if she's as good as you say she is.