to think that evicting hundreds of travellers from their site is unfair and immoral

[rocketty]

It's an illegal site. They didn't have planning permission. It's greenbelt...

but it used to be a car scrapyard (not rolling fields and thatched cottages then), they own the land and it's right next to a legal settlement.

They've obviously broken the law by settling here, but on balance, wouldn't it be more ethical to let them be? The children are settled at school and getting an education. Lots of people are prejudiced against gypsies and travellers but they've got to live somewhere.

I've seen the news articles about it. It makes me feel sad.

Ethnic minority - a group that has different national or cultural traditions from the majority of the population.

Travellers have different cultural traditions from the majority of the population, yes?

While I really dislike what AWA is saying, I think sometimes mumsnet is far too quick to delete posts - it completely defeats the point of popel being able to argue effectively against people they strongly disagree with. I think it's ludicrous and I'm glad it doesn't happen on other forums I go on.

The modding here is far too draconian sometimes

I think MNHQ are deleting because the posts are racially discriminating against a protected ethnic minority and in theory a crime has been committed.

What cultural traditions do Irish travellers have?

This thread makes no sense at all now due to all the deletions.

I don't blame MNHQ...I blame the trigger happy reporters who can't seem to see that if someone makes a totally ignorant/racist post, it's better off being left there so everyone can see just how ignorant/racist that poster is.

Getting their posts deleted, simply means no-one will know what a twat they are.

I await the above post to be deleted for daring to state facts from personal experience. Because heaven forbid we have an opinion that is not trained into obedience by the thought police.

Ok I think I really need help.

Their race is Caucasian so it's not a race thing.

Their ethicity is protected. What does this mean? Defined by working as "a group that has different national or cultural traditions."

But what are those traditions? What happens if large numbers of them fly contrary to the law? Why is this to be tolerated?

The ones I can think of are, the different language, the travelling (except they don't and this fight is to make sure they don't have to) the illiteracy, the very old-fashioned and oppressive attitudes towards women, refusal to integrate and hostility to integration.

I need some positive ones to see this label as protected ethnic minority as a valuable label.

Really? Do I have to go fishing for definitions of "cultural" and "traditions"? . A cultural tradition is something that is passed down from generation to generation and that defines that group, relating to how they conduct their everyday existence in a place and time etc. Travellers have quite a number of customs around marriage and courtship, raising children etc and have a history of their own language etc which I understood to have pretty much died away. According to many of you here, travellers have pretty strong cultural traditions when it comes to lawlessness and thieving and their treatment of women. Either way, they meet the definition of an ethnic minority group. You don't have to like them because they do, or condone their behaviour.

understand

From TwoifbySea:

Families are being made homeless every day by the banks and where is Vanessa Redgrave and the like then?

I note that the local primary school has an absentee rate of over 50%.

Sorry but if you flout the law then tough luck. Everyone else has to pay their way and do as their told. Remember that farmer who built a huge big house and hid it behind the bales of hay? He had to get it torn down.

Anyway, they are travellers, the clue is in the name. As long as they have a caravan surely they're fine. If they are whining about how people perceive them then perhaps they should look at their own behaviour.

I've noted that when gypsies turn up you hardly know they are there but with some travellers there is a horrendous mess left behind. When they pitched up in the park of a local town no one went near the place for fear of the free roaming dogs, the wild kids and abusive adults. Not so much a stereotype when it is actually happening.

The gypsies use the sites set up for their benefit, like I said you don't know they're there unless you pass by and see the washing lines up.

I just reposted with any hint of anything at all offensive removed - just in case.

Yes, I really do need help as regards travellers.

I want to know what their cultural traditions are that don't break the law, because I don't think cultural traditions that break the law should be protected.

Are there any apart from the language?

"Travellers have quite a number of customs around marriage and courtship, raising children" - these for example would be considered sometimes highly dubious, oppressive and, in the case of keeping them from school, illegal.

"a history of their own language etc which I understood to have pretty much died away" - along with the traveling side of things.

"According to many of you here, travellers have pretty strong cultural traditions when it comes to lawlessness and thieving and their treatment of women. Either way, they meet the definition of an ethnic minority group."

Seriously, you think "lawlessness and theiving" and oppressive treatment of women meet the definition of an ethnic minority group because their great grandfathers did it?

And if they do, you think that if (pls note MNHQ) they've been thieving for generations that culture should be respected?

Seriously seriously seriously you have to tell me this.

Seriously you cannot tell me that lawless behaviour merits "meeting the definition of an ethnic minority group".

Cheers Blueberties!

It is frustrating when you can see something but cannot comment on it because it does not fit in with the way we are meant to be thinking.

I take things as I see them and if it causes offence then I am sorry I have my own opinion.

I think the problem most people have is the mess left behind. It is just unnecessary.

No, Blueberties. I am going a bit blue myself from saying I don't condone criminal behaviour. I am saying that's what some on this thread see as the defining characteristic of this group, which clearly has a different way of life from the majority of the population.

I am no expert on travellers, a lot of what I know is hazy, but as I've mentioned they do have marriage/courtship rituals and way of doing things that are unique to them. I know from the people I've worked with that, for example, they have a secret first name to confuse the fairies, there are all sorts of superstitions e.g. fear of banshees, a dying traveller must never be left alone and obviously there is the issue of all their material belongings being destroyed after death etc (including the caravan).

Ok I get that Working but you did just contradict yourself then when you said "either way they meet the definition of an ethnic minority".

Those traditions haven't been denigrated here at all - only their behaviour.

Tbh they seem pretty minor traditions to deserve global protection, probably less than most Welsh or Manx people. Unless maybe Welsh people are a protected minority too? I think if general lawlessness and anti-social behaviour is being protected by a claim to believe in fairies, well, I think that's wrong and against the human rights of the people affected by their behaviour.

Hello.

There seems to be some confusion about the reason for some of the post deletions on this thread. So just to be clear...

As we make clear in our Talk Guidelines, we will delete personal attacks on other posters.

We will also delete posts that make generalised discriminatory attacks on a ethnic/racial minority.

We have no issue with this discussion in itself - it's topical and interesting - and we have no issue with people posting from personal experience (as long as their account doesn't identify specific people or incidents that could potentially expose us or them to action for libel).

Where we do take issue is when posters extrapolate from their personal experiences/observations of certain individuals to make generalised and discriminatory statements about an entire ethnic/racial group of people.

Hello. I'd like to know why my post was deleted.

Oh maybe I'm going to get deleted for saying that believing in fairies is too minor to deserve global protection. This is a minefield.

And I would like to know why my post was deleted too. The one where I described what it was like living next to an illegal camp.

From what I hear you seem to mind more about travellers' reputations than about insults chucked about to disabled people.

i think the reason most people on the site are fed up with the travellers is because they seem to be getting preferential treatment.

For the last say 15 years' the silent, law abiding majority of this country have had quite a difficult time. Taxed to the hilt, opportunities diminishing, university fees being introduced, child benefit being taken away.

It does not seem to be pay to be honest and law abiding in GB these days.

It's been mentioned a couple of times that many Irish Travellers own homes and land back in Ireland. Can anybody point me in the direction of how this is known/further details?

Berties - Your post of 13.04 is much better put than any of my drivel. That is exactly what I should have posted.

What did you mean by Mouseface you make our point for us ?

My own personal experience of travellers has been positive> It doesn't mean to say that they don't behave inappropriately or offensively.

Because you're claiming it's about ethnicity? And that's some kind of defence?

It isn't at all. Nobody is having a go at travellers for their ethnicity. I don't know where ethnicity comes into it at all.