AIBU to think Bs at GCSE are ok?

[catwalker]

Some issues with DS and GCSEs/6th form. He didn't get the grades he was predicted (As and As) but then I didn't expect him to as he doesn't put much effort into anything apart from his x box. He got mainly Bs, a couple of As, a couple of Cs and a couple of Ds. I was quite happy until I started reading the secondary education forum where people are tearing their hair out because their dc's didn't get straight As and may have blown their oxbridge chances. I get the impression that anything less than an A just isn't worth the paper it's written on. He could have done loads better but Bs are OK aren't they?

scottishmummy saying that posts are juvenile etc. Well, I never. Suggesting that it is unbelievable that anyone of any calibre in recruitment would judge base on GCSEs ahead of degree level qualifications is not because I "no likey content", it's because it's frankly fantastic to suggest that this is a fruitful method of serious recruitment. It is hugely myopic.

I think that you can just get bogged down on the snob value. You need to look at individual teaching in a subject. I get the impression that if somewhere like Birmingham had fantastic facilities in a subject and had come out top for teaching of that subject,consistently for 10yrs, people like Xenia wouldn't consider it because it was Birmingham-they would rather go for somewhere lower down with the 'right' name.

I think also, whatever you do to make yourself attractive to interviweing tutors or employers, there is always an element of subjectivity.

DH is often involved in the recruitment of lawyers for his firm and he has a personal bias towards applicants with law degrees. No matter that you got a first from Oxbridge in English, or history etc. He's still gonna prefer the applicant with the law degree (assuming its at least a 2.1 from a good uni).

Every interviewer will have his/her own little things that matter.

Exotic - I wasn't interested in Oxbridge either when I was applying for my undergraduate degree. I went to a school which prided itself on getting people into the top universities, particularly for its scholarship girls who didn't come from traditional 'Oxbridge type' families. I was one of those and I was pushed quite hard to apply to Oxford to do a subject I didn't really want to do beyond A-level. I went to an open day there on a horrible rainy day and I trudged around hating the place. I refused to apply, went to Edinburgh and had a great time. A couple of years later I spent some time in Oxford on a university sports club training camp and fell in love with the place. I loved every minute of my time at Oxford, at Brookes and a year working in the town, but I suspect that I would have hated it as an undergraduate. I also don't think I would have got in which would have been a massive confidence knock at that age.

A lot of it is about applying to the right place at the right time for you and having an open mind about what you want to get out of it. I didn't go into higher education with any intention of being where I am now - it was an evolving process. I am now thinking of a change of direction again - what was right for me in my twenties and early thirties isn't necessarily going to work out for me now, with a second child on the way.

I don't believe that a slip-up at GCSEs, or even A-levels (speaking as someone who didn't work anywhere near hard enough at A-level and could have done better) is the end of any sort of ambition. As long as you have the basic ability and a realistic view of where that ability, and hard work, can get you, there are always opportunities to make changes, or even to go back and start again.

A more recent story than mine - I have a much younger SIL who recently graduated. She is a good student but not great at exams for some reason. She had an offer from Warwick which is top in the UK for her subject, but she dropped a grade and didn't get in. DP and I panicked a little - I think we both reverted to Oxbridge thinking and got in a right flap about her options. She had a place to do the same subject at a small uni in a fairly obscure part of the UK - we did not think this was a good idea and put pressure on her to take a year out and re-sit, perhaps with a stronger CV after a year in relevant work. She stuck to her guns and took the place she had and it turned out to be a very well respected course which looks set to stand her in good stead. Not having learned from this, we were also dubious when she took a job that we considered to be a stop-gap, rather than a career step. A few months on and she has been offered a newly-created role in the company and is doing very well, and has a clear idea of where her next move should be.

There is not only one way of doing things. I hope by the time DS is 18 I will have got that a bit more firmly into my head!

And part of what we need our chidlren to know is what the prejudices however unfair of others are. Some won't want you with tatoos or if you drop aitches. Some will. Most of our bin men have tatoos and plenty are just out of prison. None of the doctors I know have them. So all children need to know is what matters.

There is an iportant point on recruitment though. If you will get 2000 applciations for 100 places which is very common (even for a job in a new store locally we had photos in the local paper of people queuing right round the block) you have to apply some filters. If you have 100 people with a 2/1 from a good university you might have to filt er those down even more for some jobs so you might use GCSE and A level grades or types of subjects taken.

What we need to do is ensure children know what bias might be out there so they do indeed polish their shoes before the interview and wear the right clothes.
Also if you want someone who has always worked har dan dyou have some who lazed around scraping GCSEs, just getting by with BBB at A level and then got a first from some ex poly I think you'd be wrong to perfer them over someone who has always worked hard and got good grades everywhere.

Quite frankly if they have lots of applicants with good class degrees and they are using GCSEs as a filtre I wouldn't want the job! It is next to useless. My DS is an August birthday-it is ludicrous that he misses out because he didn't apply himself very well as an immature 15yr old! We will have people ask them them at what age they started to read next-as proof that they were educationally advanced at 3yrs!
My father had a high flying career, his school reports made us laugh as DCs (teachers didn't mince their words in the 1930's) . They suddenly changed when he was 15yrs and decided he ought to work. I don't think that this had any bearing on his attitudes, abilities and work ethic in later life.

Xenia, if someone has, say, C's and D's at GCSE level from a comprehensive, then a mix of grades at A level and 2:1 or first, shouldn't this suggest to you that they have shown greater grit and determination than someone who had straight A's who attended a fee-paying school where they were coached intensively in the requirements of exams? Why does an upward trajectory of grades suggest that someone lazed around in their early years? All sorts of factors can impact upon early academic success, GCSEs are no measure of the quality of a candidate. You sound as though you are being incredibly lazy in your assumptions and I would suggest your workforce will be the poorer for it.

God Xenia do every read other peopes posts or indeed newspapers? If yes why are you still referring to "a first from some ex poly" in a derogatroy way?

You sound very out of touch in your views about some universities. The only loser though is you and your businesses, because you obviously dismiss any applicant who doesn't match your very narrow criteria at a very early stage. Your loss is someone elses gain.

I got C's for mine (or 3s as I did Scottish Standard Grades)

I then went on to get one C in Higher (A level)

I then went on to get a 2:1 BSC(hons)

There's TOO much pressure on kids to get A's and it being the be all and end all. It helps sure but it's no way the end of the world because there's ALWAYS a way to get into further education if you're absolutely determined to do it.

I wasn't stupid, I just haded school and had shite teachers.

The latest survey of employers (this month) shows that they want someone who can do the job-

'A study by Santander has revealed that two thirds of employers would prefer to hire a school leaver with two years work experience over a recent graduate, with 80% favouring a school leaver with three years work experience over someone with a degree.

Of the 400 firms polled ? from sectors including IT, manufacturing, financial services and education ? 60% of employers claim that it ?makes no difference? if candidate has a degree or not when considering them for a job.

Richard O?Flynn, Talent & Leadership Development manager at Santander, said:

?The survey results demonstrate that employers are open-minded about the various talent pools that they recruit from.?

Whether this is true for the majority isn't really important-it just goes to illustrate that not every recruiter is sifting out everything under a 2:1, then sifting out those with A'levels below A grade and then using GCSEs to end up with an interview selection. I would have thought it a very poor system to get the best person for the job.

I get the impression that some DCs are on the treadmill at 3 yrs to get the 'right' school and the 'right' university and the 'right' job. You wonder if anyone ever stopped to ask them at any point if they even wanted to go to university-let alone which one.
My father wanted me to go to one in London, I said 'I'm not going to London' and luckily that was the end of that. (I think he was always a bit disappointed but he kept it to himself).
I told my DSs to go with their 'gut' feeling. DS1 went to one open day where he came back absolutely blown away by the labs and facilities but he said that it was just too big and impersonal for him. By 17yrs they should know what suits them.

There was a very good article in the Sunday Times a few weeks ago by an ex head of a fee paying school about helicopter parents. He gave the following example:

'Another memorable letter griped that a boy was in despair as his first choice of university had turned him down, and this was the worst thing that had ever happened to him even though he had offers from two other excellent universities.
The problem was resolved a day later when a delighted but rather sheepish young man put his head round the door and said: ?I?m really sorry my mum?s written to you, sir. She really wants me to go to that university, but I don?t, actually. I?m far happier with the one that has offered me a place.? He then paused for a moment, exasperation and love of his mother competing on his face, and added: ?She?s a bit over the top sometimes, sir, but, honestly, she?s really rather nice.?'

I should think that is all too common and happens all over the country.

"Most of our bin men have tatoos and plenty are just out of prison. None of the doctors I know have them. So all children need to know is what matters."

What an astoundingly vile and crass statement Xenia. How the hell do you know plenty of your bin men are just out of prison??!! Do you interview them before you let them empty your bins? Do you ask how many of them just "scraped" BBB at A level?

I am the opposite of a helicopter parent and my children are very laid back. I want them to do what they will be happy doing but you have to acecpt that plenty of teenagers haven't got a clue. I remember one of my daughters saying XYZ was in a good job because they got free clothes at one state (it was a pittance wage in industry but yes free clothes) and someone else because he got a free car. You just dont' have life experience yet as a teenager and so you should do your research and hopefully take guidance from people who realise most people want to save the world at 18 and buy a house and send chidlren to good schools by the time they're 30 but may not realise that at 18.

I was just telling you how it is out there for children coming out of unversities. We are i a m ajor recession. It's a blood bath out there. There are huge numbers of people all with As who cannot get any jobs. They cannot even get summer work in bars many of them at present. When it is like that it is harder to get jobs. In times where there are not enough graduates to be had then of course the lower grades and worse institutions are looked at.

exotic I know it seems a silly system when one recruits, that you filter out what might be excellent applicants because they don't have a good enough degree.

But the trouble is you can and do receive thousands upon thousands of applications, so you have to have some filter. No business can spare the time to interview everyone. And that will still leave huge amounts of applicants to choose from. You will still have lots of choice to make a good decision.

Okay you might lose the odd good 'un, but balanced against the basic needs of your business, that remains the right choice to make.

You are right exotic, feel very much for the DC. Someone on this thread earlier, stated that she believes in selection from the age of 4.

It would be funny if it wasn't so utterly ridiculous.

My DS couldn't get a summer job, even in a bar so I know it is tough! It will be tough when he finishes, but since he will have a technical skill from an ex poly I think he stands more chance than someone with a history degree from Oxford. (Had he done a history degree from an ex poly of course it would be harder to get a job than one from Oxford)

But Word everyone agrees there must be filtering, but xenia was talking about filtering out people with a first from an "ex poly". As other posters have said that is very narrow minded as several "ex polies" are very near the top of the league tables for some subjects.

It's just narrow minded snobbery.

And xenia is right about the state of the job market at the moment. It's absolutely dire.

I get people emailing me every day asking to work for free. DH too.

It's utterly pointless looking at how things have been before and saying X got this great job or Y got that great place at university. You have to work with how things are now and that is absurdly, stupidly, gob smackingly competitive.

DC need the best possible advice from their parents and school, not platitudes.

I understand that you have to filter but surely someone can devise a better method than GCSEs? Psychometric tests for example.

I haven't read the whole thread, but on the Oxbridge point, I got 3 As, 1 A and 5 Bs for my GCSEs (i.e. the majority Bs), and I went to Cambridge. I got all As in my A levels, but obviously I didn't have my A level results before I got my offer. It wasn't THAT long ago, so I'm not sure about this "Oxbridge insist on 7+ As" etc.

Quick it's just horses for courses. If you have a particlar degree in a particular skill from a particular establishment known for it...then you're well placed to get a job that uses that skill.

But law, for example, isn't like that, particularly if you want to go to a large commercial firm or a good set of chambers. They have very strict criteria. Pretending that's not the case is just daft.

I know a young man who wants to become a commercial lawyer. He is certainly bright enough but his A level choices are awful. They won't get him into a top tier university. And without that he won't get the chance he wants. He has had very very poor advice.

He has had very very poor advice

Or he thought he knew best
Or his parents did

The number of kids I interview for Sixth Form who want to do their favourite subjects and have whose parents want to back them up is ridiculous

I support students taking subjects of interest but not to the closure of future options

There is a big difference between being uniformed/pig-headed and choosing to do something when you've been told it may not help you with your ultimate goal, and getting less-than-perfect results. If you do the latter, you should not panic, you should research your options and work as hard as you can to make up ground.

"There is also a problem with caste too in the UK"(which is basically class) -can you explain what you mean by this ? Xenia

I should think Xenia is referring to the recent high profile employment tribunal on caste discrimination