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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

The God Delusion

439 replies

YummyHoney · 18/08/2011 19:26

In thinking that Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion should be compulsory reading for all secondary school children?

Not only would it put paid to all the religious nonsense some parents spout, it would also put an end to a lot of wars and violence in the world.

OP posts:
sniffy · 21/08/2011 22:04

YABU . It's a big old pile of incredibly biased crapola

NotADudeExactly · 21/08/2011 22:14

Umm, re. The list of conflicts: I honestly can't be sure about Iraq and Afghanistan. These wars were initiated by GWB and his Tonyness, both of whom have at times dispalyed a rather creepy tendency to assume that the Christian god is helping them make policy decisions. Hmm

I'm starting to get slighly Worried by the fact that this thread makes me want to defend Dawkins half of the time. I don't even like Dawkins. I think he's a smug, deliberately offensive elitist with a very questionable attitude towards women.

It's just that he's really right about the god thing as far as I'm concerned.

NotADudeExactly · 21/08/2011 22:15

displayed

worried

I blame the iPad!

Pan · 21/08/2011 22:17

take your point about Dubya, but if the Christian driver was so active they'd have been warring all of the time. We all know they were about strategic influences in an oil-rich region.
God? He/She is one misunderstood dude.

onagar · 22/08/2011 09:30

Pan, I said right off that the OP was wrong to blame all wars on religion so you're barking up the wrong tree there.

You object to my saying that "most religious people are harmless?", at the same time you object to others suggesting that religion causes wars. Sounds like you are not sure what you want.

'non-violent confrontation' and 'respect' for others sounds like the basis of just about all major religions.

Last I looked some of the main religions were still saying it's okay (required?) to mistreat gay people and women.

Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Some will say that last is a long time ago, but that only makes sense if god died and this is a new god you have now. Is that what happened?

Pan · 22/08/2011 19:57

yes onagar, I missed that comment of yours much further up re 'wars and religion'. Nontheless, the list of conflicts was designed t orefute the OPs notion rather than anything you had directly said, so I do apologise if there was a confusion there.

I think I was just gently mocking the statement that 'most religious people are harmless', which sounded a bit patronising tbh.

And I do know that which I would wish - it's a bit multi-dimensional: I don't believe that God is some being outside of the human existence, and can be called upon to provide a divine intervention ( for eg the Baby P circs. which was quoted above.). As I had said, we are blessed with free will and it isn't God's job to police that. It's your job as a human, which is quite a responsibility!

Wars? Well, that's pretty much a shame, as I had listed the wars very clearly nothing to d owith religion - sometimes it's used a convenient set of clothing to provide a justification for them.

And yes I am sort of a bit aware of Deuteronomy and some of which it says. But asking me or anyone else to 'defend' that as 'God's word is a bit like asking anyone like me, or others to defend creationism at one end of existence of the world, to the Four Horsemen of the Apocolypse in Revalations as being fact at the other end of the world. The scribers of the Old Testament have little to do with the modern world and our 'sophistications'.

God dying? Well, yes. Sort of. We mature and develop our understanding of God as we grow up AND as the centuries go by, so you are right in that regard.

Hope this has been a bit clearer?

spudulika · 22/08/2011 20:03

YABU

I'm an atheist, but my young children believe in god. I think it's rather nice for them, like believing in the tooth fairy or father christmas.

I'd hate someone to come along and disabuse them of the idea that there's a heaven, and someone, other than me, who loves them and wants them to do good.

Let them discover the truth when they're adults and old enough to cope with the disappointment.

spudulika · 22/08/2011 20:07

"er....humans have free will. To 'blame' God for humans ignoring the guidance provided, as it were, is a bit unsatisfactory. You are asking for a devine intervention every time humans feck up"

If God never intervenes, then why do so many religious people believe in miracles?

Pan · 22/08/2011 20:19

Crumbs! I am not a major theologian!

yes spud - the 'external God' is about as relevant as the tooth fairy or Father Christmas. Heaven and hell? They are with us all of the time. Do 'good things' and you value yourself and others - a sort of heaven. Do the opposite and you are inviting yourself to feel bad and for others to suffer for your actions - a sort of hell. IYSWIM.

Miracles? I have noo idea! Other than the evidence of some individual's strength of faith, but beyond that I don't know

HeifferunderConstruction · 22/08/2011 20:22

As an Athiest myself NO!

DonaldMcronald · 22/08/2011 20:22

It God does not exist then we are all just animals and like other animals when the become a pest they are controled. Now we have had animals running riot and killing and burning down the places they live should they not be controled?

What makes us different from other animals then? What is the bit inside of us that makes us different

FabbyChic · 22/08/2011 20:25

Dawkins speaks a lot of sense. Science does tell us there is no god.

There is no proof none whatsoever.

Until there is concrete proof then how can anybody say there is a god? hmmm?

Pan · 22/08/2011 20:32

Well Fabby - the 'proof' is in you. Looking for a shaft of lightening or a demonstration of divine power outside of yourself isn't going to happen. I don't think. The 'faith' hoped for is the faith you have in yourself.

And here endeth the first lesson! Gotta go.

spookshowangel · 22/08/2011 20:32

i have read it, he makes a lot of good points its funny and clever he ultimately want to turn atheists in to an organised group with a single belief sounds religious to me. though i am sure he would disagree as would his militant followers.

spudulika · 22/08/2011 20:39

"The 'faith' hoped for is the faith you have in yourself."

I've never forgotten reading that 'The definition of faith is believing in something you know isn't true'.

Grin

I'm always astonished at how so many people believe in god in the continued and universal absence of any evidence of his existence.

It's quite touching in a way - as a demonstration of the overwhelming optimism and innocence of the human spirit.

You have to have something of the child in you to believe in god.
Smile

amicissima · 22/08/2011 20:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

spookshowangel · 22/08/2011 20:42

should say i believe in god so according to spud am innocent and childlike.

spudulika · 22/08/2011 20:47

Love your optimism spooks. I respect your faith. Your ability to believe that there is someone out there VERY LIKE YOU, who knows everything you do and CARES. And is looking out for you.

That's lovely.

Hilarious and tragic, but lovely.

InstantAtom · 22/08/2011 20:52

Not true at all. Some of the people who have started wars and violence have certainly been atheist or agnostic. People fight each other and some of the time they use religion as an excuse, by misinterpreting the religion. If they didn't have religion to try to justify their actions they'd just find something else. Religion has caused a lot of peace in the world too.

"it would also put an end to a lot of wars and violence in the world"

Pan · 22/08/2011 20:53

spud - you have actually read nothing, have you? Nothing about God NOT being an external being like Father Christmas?

That's the hilarious thing. Nothing tragic about that. Unfortunatley. Just a bit sad.

spookshowangel · 22/08/2011 21:03

interesting that you say you respect it and then say its hilarious and tragic that doesnt sound very respectful to me, patronising perhaps, vitriolic definitely but not very respectful.

Himalaya · 22/08/2011 21:04

I don't know about Dawkins as required reading, but I do wish someone would write an accesssible version of The God Delusion/ God is Not Great etc... for a snarky preteen audience. They are hard going for a questioning younger set of kids to read but I don't think there is any harm at all admitting to kids that religious ideas do not deserve automatic R.E.S.P.E.C.T.

Himalaya · 22/08/2011 21:08

... Actually if any Dawkins book should be required reading it is The Selfish Gene. Most kids can work out for themselves their personal viewpoint on supernatural entities, but the number of adults who dont understand how evolution works is a shame - it is so poorly taught in school, and such an important thing to know.

InstantAtom · 22/08/2011 21:10

I agree Himalaya, but I think the default these days is to disrespect religion. There's nothing unusual, edgy or original about disrespecting religion, it's all been done before. The pendulum has swung the other way from the default respect religion used to have in Victorian society. Ideally the pendulum would settle in the middle IMHO.

"I don't think there is any harm at all admitting to kids that religious ideas do not deserve automatic R.E.S.P.E.C.T."

sunshineandbooks · 22/08/2011 21:22

Hope this isn't going to derail things and be too pedantic, but I'm not sure you can use the argument "you can't prove He doesn't exist." Doesn't the philosophy of science say you can't prove the absence of anything? (e.g. I can't prove there aren't unicorns, but that doesn't mean they exist).

I am a firm atheist. The more I read and think about it, the more conviction I have. I find it very empowering and liberating, because by believing that there is no higher-ordained 'point' to life I am left to the conclusion that I can make the 'point' whatever i want it to be and be master of my own fortunes.

At the same time, I am more tolerant of other people's religions than I've ever been - maybe their faith is their point. Each to their own. Life is beautiful but not easy and whatever belief makes a person's life easier is fine by me as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. I have no time for religious fanatics of any shape, nor do i like those who may not be fanatics but do use religion to dress up their own particular versions of morality, but IME most normal people with a faith are just not like that and I have many friends who are religious. I respect their views as they do mine.

I think the desire to believe in something is an intrinsic part of human nature, hardwired into a psyche, and research is beginning to bear this out. With that in mind, it seems just as bad to force people into non-belief as much as to indoctrinate them into any religion. What would be better is to let people make up their own minds while ensuring they have a broad understanding of psychology, all world religions and atheism together. There is nothing wrong with any belief system about anything as long as it is respectful of other beliefs, does not infringe human rights, and is not used to enforce spurious, man-made definitions of morality.