To be cross with my nanny?

[Maria101]

I have my own internet business and work from home. I have a part time nanny who comes three days a week to look after my 1-year-old. She's generally great, however, at the start of the summer holidays she mentioned (didn't really ask) she might have to bring her 6-year-old son along some days. Tbh I didn't mind this, as she made it sound like an occasional thing, and my daughter likes him and likes having other children around.

However, she started bringing him every single time. During my baby's nap times instead of cleaning the bottles/high chair, making meals etc, like she did before, she would sit and read to him on my sofa while I was working in the next room. Also, all their activities would involve going to the park etc, instead of going to playgroups (presumably because he would get bored). Other things bothered me, such as once my daughter messed her nappy just as the nanny arrived with her son, who wanted toast. She said to me, 'You deal with that (the nappy), while I make him (her son) some toast'. Stupidly I did, even though she had technically started work.

Last week I told her not to bring her son anymore because it's too distracting having him here in the house while I try to work. She was OK about it, and didn't bring him, but today I got a text at 8.30 (she's due here at 9) asking if she could bring him because her sister couldn't have him. She suggested picking my daughter up and taking her to her house. But surely this is childminding? Plus, I had purposefully left some jobs for her to do in nap time (make a shepherds pie). I said not to worry so now I don't have any childcare today.

I'm fuming. My main problems are: a) I don't want her son in my house when I'm trying to work, but equally I don't want my daughter out every single day (her initial solution to my finding her son too distracting). b) I want her to work during my daughter's nap times, and not play with her son or do her own housework (which she'd probably do if my daughter went to her house). c) she treats our arrangement like a casual agreement between friends, when I'm paying her to do a job. For example, there was no apology this morning for letting me down and making me work tonight after my daughter has gone to bed (if I don't work during the day it has to get done at some point).

Should I a) just cancel our contract and look for another childminder/nanny? Tackle it head on Monday morning and then have the awkwardness that would follow?

Sorry for the rant, but I'm furious! PS, I know part of this is my fault for being too laid back with her in the first place but for the most part she's a good nanny but she seems to be getting worse and taking the pi**.

Its hard to comment properly without knowing details of contract/arrangement.

Mathanxiety - you really do have some very strange ideas.

When I was a nanny I used to put the little boys (probably about 3 and 4 at the time) down for their nap and, as soon as they were asleep, fall asleep for a good hour on the couch. You'd have loved me! :o

I know in some ways it is like any other job and there are rules and contracts, etc, but in some ways it isn't like any other job. Yes, I took the piss occasionally when I nannied. I was 21! I took naps, I let the boys watch too much TV once in a blue moon. But I adored them.

When the mother would call frantically to say that she would be late and she was sorry but could I please pop dinner in the oven, or her hyper-critical father was coming over and could I please tidy up even though it was past time for me to go home, I never said a word besides "sure" and got on with it. Because I understood that shit happens and sometimes people need a little help.

She probably wasn't thrilled with some of the things I did either, but we muddled through.

I guess it comes down to, is she basically a good nanny? Can you work this out?

And I guess I am a little unsure as to why she can't make the pie while your DC is awake.

What weird ideas you have mathanxiety. When I take my 1 year old to playgroups (because he likes to get out of the house and play - yes, even at 1!) I don't mind if the people I'm chatting to are mothers, fathers, grandmothers, childminders, nannies. I don't even care if they are English, Polish or Somali Unless it's a parents group then all children and their carers are welcome.

Mathanxiety... its completely normal for nannies to attend playgroups.... and normally there may only be 1 or 2 other nannies there, and far more mums
(sometimes some grandparents and CMs too)
(only exception seems to be nappy valley in london (where all the toddler groups are full with long waiting lists, and there are so many nannies that some groups exclude nannies, and some nannies make their own nanny groups)

And (shock horror) nannies and their charges can be friends with Mummys and their biological children (or adopted or fostered for that matter)

Being a nanny shouldnt (and thank god doesnt) exclude us from toddler groups, and some if the adults my age who i socialise with and see outside of toddler groups (with or without children) have been MUMMIES who i have met while nannying.

Also, yes it is normal for nannies to cook food for children, and making a shepheards pie.... even if child is only one. The same could be said for almost every homemade meal, its why we have portion pots and freezers.

However if you had a nanny for 5 hours a day, (15 hours a week), then i wouldnt expect the nanny to make meals often, after all, she is hardly doing a "whole" nanny job, where it IS normal to make all (or most of) childrens meals and do all the childrens laundry etc.

If you only have someone for a few hours a week, you cant expect the same advantages as employing someone full time

I expect the employer wanted her nanny to do what I used to do when mine were small. I made a normal sized dish and then froze it in baby sized portions. It isn't difficult and it would be very silly to just make one baby sized portion of pie at a time.

Oh stop feeling guilty. She's wrong, you're right, tell her.

Right, so far I've been accused of:

1. Paying my nanny cash in hand (I don't, thank you very much)
2. Not having a formal contract (I do)
3. Not letting my nanny have a break (she works half days and spends at least 20 mins of my daughter's morning nap drinking tea and reading her book, which is fine by me...as long as other stuff gets done beforehand)
4. Shock, horror, feeding my daughter shepherd's pie

90% of the feedback I've had has been great - even the people who think I'm being unreasonable say it in a fair and constructive way. But the remaining 10% who don't even read posts properly and go off on a tangent about pies/contracts/holiday/playgroup etiquette etc, should really stop being so angry and judgmental.

I've spoken to my nanny and it's all sorted. Have a good week everybody.

Maria, it's the mumsnet way. Thou shalt not have a nanny without being prepared to be judged and misunderstood within an inch of your life. Much healthier for you to not give a toss what the judgey ones think!

Can I be nosey and asked how you sorted it?

Tell me about it! We just sat down and discussed it and both agreed to a little bit of compromise and to be more open going forwards about what's pi**ing us off. It was all quite simple really.

Unfortunately, when you involve other people that's the trade off. If it was so simple to sort, why bother asking anyone's opinion?

And you were the one that started the debate about pies etc.

Great! Next time, I suggest you post in the childminders and nannies sections. It's frequented by both employers and nannies and the advice you get there is superb (like you have had here) minus the judginess (also like you have had here!). Some of the nannies there are fab (eg Nick, Blondes and Frak) and very fair minded in terms of seeing it from both employer and employee perspectives so if they tell you you're being unreasonable, you may not want to hear it but they're normally right!

This is my last comment on the matter, but GwendolineMaryLacey - I was stressed on Friday and wanted another opinion (as most of us do on here, surely?).

As mums, we're all busy, stressed, trying our best etc. So I was just having a moan and asking for advice. I wasn't asking to be torn apart and expected to explain every minor detail of my dilemma. As for the pie thing, it's almost too comical to keep talking about it - but I didn't start that debate. I was asked by about 20 mumsnetters why on earth I would feed my daughter shepherds pie. Even down to the quantity I gave her (which had bu**er all to do with my original post).

Anyway, I take on board what you say about the trade off. But that's all I'm saying on the matter! Pie-gate is closed for debate!

Sorry, but I think that is utter nonsense, mathanxiety

OP - with all due respect, posting in AIBU has always been the same, as I'm sure you know. If you don't want people to question you, post somewhere a little safer

I don't think this has anything to do with having a nanny - you haven't been flamed for having a nanny.

You posted a thread about employment issue so it is natural that posters asked you about contract, hours, holidays. We asked about the contract because usually it includes terms like 1 to 1 care. The poster who asked you about holidays did so because it is related to the issue, you didn't reply even so she asked you twice, you only answered questions about the pie and none at all about the employment.

Also telling an employee to not come today to work raises other questions i.e. is this paid or unpaid, taken as annual leave, or is it failure of the employee to fulfill the contract as she didn't offer 1 to 1 care? Unless the arrangment is very 'casual' these issues would be raised and not the pie.
The same if you had a shop or a factory and told an employee to not bother and come. No need for chip about having a nanny or a cleaner or a gardener. Nobody will judge you if everything is above the water, legal and fair.

OP I'm glad you got it sorted. In response to the snippy posters "why bother coming on here if you don't want opinions yada yada.."

Well, actually, opinions are only useful and relevant to the OP when the poster is in full command of the right facts. It irks me when people come on here with their 'opinions' but haven't bothered to read the thread properly and then moan when OP (and other posters) see them as prejudice and judgement.

Mumsnet can be such a wonderful, positive and supportive place to get information but I know I (and possibly others) have been put off from using it at times for fear of these unpleasant tangents threads can often take.

Personally, I only post on threads where I feel I might be (arrogantly or not) of some help to the OP. The majority of people on here do that too but it's really disappointing when the spirit of supportiveness and constructive advice is spoilt by a few unhelpful mnetters.

"However if you had a nanny for 5 hours a day, (15 hours a week), then i wouldnt expect the nanny to make meals often, after all, she is hardly doing a "whole" nanny job, where it IS normal to make all (or most of) childrens meals and do all the childrens laundry etc.
If you only have someone for a few hours a week, you cant expect the same advantages as employing someone full time"

This is an excellent point and I wonder if it came up in the conversation the OP had with her nanny about things that were pissing them both off.

The point about telling the nanny not come in is an excellent one too and since I expect most people here have been employed the question of whether any contract was in operation would naturally be raised by this detail. It sounds capricious.

(My first job ended with all the employees being phoned at home by the owner/employer individually telling us to take two days off and of course the place was closed up and locked and he had run for the hills with the Revenue Commissioners hard on his heels. I have always been suspicious of any unexpected days off ever since.)

The following concerns playgroups/nannies generally so if you don't want to read on, don't:
To those who think it's good for a nanny to get out but think also that expecting a nanny to work five hours straight without being able to take a break is fine, you can't really have it both ways. Are you really fine with the idea that your nanny might spend an hour or two blathering with others in a playgroup instead of attending to your child? Have you asked the nanny what she would prefer as far as a change of scenery goes? Would she like the assurance of half an hour to herself to read or make personal calls every day while the baby naps or would she like to take the child to a playgroup? Time spent in a playgroup with your child is not really a break for your nanny. I have seen playgroups where parents (and grandparents, etc) have decided that since one or two people in the group were nannies, they could take care of the children while the rest of the adults chatted. One of the reasons I gave up on playgroups eventually (apart from having enough children of my own to constitute a small playgroup) was the tendency of other parents to take the piss in this way, and not just in groups where nannies were there.

And again, playgroups are there for the adults. The benefit for babies and children is minimal and mostly involves the development of their immune systems. Their important social and emotional growth tasks from birth to age 3 require the formation of close attachment to caregivers and not exposure to other ego trippers babies and toddlers.

mathanxiety - maybe your children didn't enjoy playgroups, but many (including mine) do. Going to a playgroup isn't a "break" for a nanny, but getting out of the house and speaking to other adults is a positive part of the job. Nannies need to be able to go and meet other adults for their own sanity, and in order to form social contacts for their charges.

Sitting in the house all day might be fine for both nanny and child, but getting out and going to different playgroups, friend's houses, parks etc is a benefit to both of them.

I think your nanny mis-read your kindness as flexibility. I wouldn't put up with it either OP. You pay her to be professional. Ok, so its 15 hours spread over 3 days. If it involves some light cooking then so be it. (I never thought Shepherds pie could be so controversial) I really think she would have sorted her own arrangements out by now even if it involves you agreeing to her ds tagging along for 1 of those days. Its not like she has a 40+ hours a week to sort out (unless of course she does other work). Also I think part of the problem is that you are very aware of what is going on due to working in the next room. This must be distracting and maybe you are being slightly more uptight than she anticipated? She will also be aware of your presence and possibly feels under pressure? Its just an idea but is there somewhere else for you to work so you can concentrate better and not feel pressured to be so involved? My dh created a work space on the landing of all places and when he is working you barely notice him. He couldn't concentrate in the dining room and the bedroom was too sunny for him.

My children enjoyed playgroups as far as I could tell (when they weren't being hit on the head with plastic toys or having stuff snatched from them). But they never asked to go. I took them on my own initiative, and mainly to seek out the company of other adults. I tried many before finding a few that I liked. Most of those I didn't keep going to had parents and children who spoke only Spanish, but I also stopped going to those where the children were basically left to their own devices or in the care of those self-selected parents who sought to prevent serious injury to children clearly not used to the law of the jungle by becoming the unofficial babysitters of other people's children. I found it annoying that there were parents or nannies or whatever who thought it was the job of other people to supervise. The best solution I found was to go to more structured gym and swim classes.

Again, my point was not whether a child enjoys a playgroup but whether playgroups have any important social/emotional benefits for very young babies and children. Children often enjoy fruitshoots or eating stuff they find on the floor but whether they benefit from them is another matter.

There are plenty of nannies who would prefer to get the chance to sit down and spend half an hour a day just finishing their own thoughts, in private, without any other claim on their attention. A lot of them go straight home and take care of their own homes and children's needs and do not have a minute to themselves all day. Many Polish nannies that I knew had an evening job too (mostly waitresses or barmaids) if they didn't have children. Most grown adults know what they themselves need for the sake of their own sanity. For an employer to assume a nanny needs to get out to a playgroup in order to preserve sanity is presumptuous and patronising and imo has more to do with notions about what their child needs than what their nanny needs.

How did you settle it? I would say either she doesn't bring her son to work with her (except on very rare occasions). Or she works for less money when he is there. Everything else is a diversion.

BTW I think shepherds is often recommended as a weaning food never mind for a 1 year old!

I also agree that playgroups are for the adults until the child is at least 2. Before that it just involves taking toys off babies and making them cry giving them back to their rightful owner when they have no idea what sharing is. I went to them a lot with pfb but have practically dodged them entirely this time around.

nPT MUCH / NOTHING TO DO WITH THE op BUT i THINK MATHANXIETY IS RIGHT ABOUT THE SOCIALISING AND THE PLAYGROUPS.

sO FAR FROM BEING NONSENSE - i THINK SHE'S ABSOLUTELY BANG ON.

pEOPLE ARE UTTERLY, UTTERLY OBSESSED BY SOCIALISING AND BY "SOCIALISING CHILDREN".

iT'S QUITE UNNECESSARY. lOVE, A SHARING NATURE, KINDNESS, GENTLENESS - YOU JUST NEED YOUR MUM AND DAD AND YOUR FAMILY FOR THESE.

i DON'T UNDERSTAND THIS INANE OBSESION WITH SOCIALISIN UP TO AND INCLUDING THE POINT OF MISERY FOR ONE'S OFFSPRING.

oh dear, I posted without my specs and look what happened

I'm so sorry everyone I had no idea

mATH YOUR IDEAS ARE NOW ASSOCIATED WITH CRAZY SHOUTING PERSON - OH DEAR.