to be concerned at how little I seem to talk to my toddler?

[innishvickallaune]

Ds (21 months) is home this week (chicken pox). He hasn't been ill at all with it, barely has even scratched.. but we have been at home now for seven working days, nine days in the house and I'm surprised at how undemanding he is of my attention.

My SIL works in a Children's Centre and she is always rabbiting on about how kids need to be talked to and you need to be down at their level and commenting on what they do etc.. but this just doesn't come naturally to me.

I am feeling really guilty I don't play more with him. Every day, we have come down here and had breakfast together, then he just plays away happily in the corner with his cars and buses.. he calls me if he is stuck "duk! duk! and even says "duk!" and signs "please" to get me to help him. He comes over and asks for drinks, he shows me things and about once or twice an hour he plops books on my lap and we read a few. Once or twice a day we have a bout of singing e.g. sleeping bunnies and incy wincy etc.. or he'll point out an "incy wincy" (he thinks anything that looks like a stray hair or bit of fluff is a spider) and we'll play.. or he'll spot some things that are the same and start counting and I will count along..

But when he is playing with cars I just... don't... have anything to say. When he was little and I was on mat leave I used to sit on the floor and play with him all the time, but now I feel downright neglectful.. he just gets on with his thing and I get on with mine and I stay away unless he calls for me. He doesn't particularly like you to direct his play so things like jigsaws and blocks he wants to do alone, he'll have a few mins of ball play here and there and when I am normally about (usually work a four day week, dh too so he has one day with me and one with dh) we always do something like baking or painting and obviously I chat through this..

But my SIL says that the major distinction in language development is the amount of words a child hears and that children in higher income families hear 1,000,000 more woreds than children in lower income families by the time they enter school. I doubt that's true in this house.. it's pretty quiet here most of the time.. She has been hinting he should be combining words and understanding longer instructions and I don't think he can, he can say about 60 or 70 words though?

Am I just the crappest mother ever? And if so, what do I do about it?

Thanks for your posts working9while5 I was getting paranoid that I had totally misunderstood the EYFS point of view on language...

Can I ask you a cheeky question while you are here? I have a hearing problem which means I speak quietly, and can't hear if there is background noise and the speaker isn't facing me (so I can't hear DD when I am pushing her on the swings for eg) she seems to be copying me and comes close for eye-contact (which is fine) and speaks really quietly (not so good), will she learn to speak up at pre-school (she starts in september) or should I ask them to do something to encourage her?

I used to find playing with DD at that age very boring, if I'm honest! I loved to do arty things, baking and read lots and lots to her, and did lots of tickling/silly things - but the thought of playing cars/dolls etc with that age group, is frankly, dull!!

DD is now nearly 6 - she has an excellent vocabulary, and talks incessantly at times. She is very inquisitive, and our communication and relationship is very close and loving.

I think you are doing a great job, OP - some kids are happy to pootle away on their own, and if you are interacting with them, then that is fine. Sometimes, it's too exhausting to constantly prattle away to a child, and if you are naturally not that chatty, then why should you be made to feel guilty? Surely, reading plenty will fill this gap, and as they get older, I find that kids are much easier to chat to anyhow.

As parents we are bombarded with things we should be doing with and for our DC all the time - my mum often says that she feels sorry for our generation, as we are made to feel as if we have to be perfect mothers/fathers, and it's just too much to live up to.

Siamo, I asked a question because it is of personal and professional interest to me. No need for the passive aggressive . I went to search out some citations on Google Scholar and Web of Knowledge and can't find any, if you can find some I would be really interested.

I think if you re-read my post, you'll see that our opinions weren't that opposed actually.

LaWeasel, it's hard to give specific advice online.. if your daughter doesn't have hearing/auditory processing issues, I would say that her communication will change in different environments but if you have concerns, you can usually self-refer to SLT who can give more individualised advice. Sorry if that sounds like a cop out!

He sounds fine to me. He plays with concentration, he is happy and contented, he amuses himself, he has imagination, you are reading stories and doing rhymes, he isn't getting negative attention (a lot of DCs demand it by being naughty) Lots of parents of 21 month olds would love to have a DC who could do all that. Some DCs must long for a bit of peace and quiet if their parents never stop talking.

I would carry on the way you are. Join the library (if you haven't already) and let him choose books. In addition to reading the story ask questions e.g. what do you think will happen next? How do you think the bear feels? etc
If he likes cars give him the car names when you are out and about.
Just use conversation when you are out and about e.g. in the supermarket.

But don't feel that you can't let him just get on in peace sometimes-a self contained DC probably hates a parent continually rabbiting on! You hear that type of parent in the supermarket-it is very loud and the DC never says anything-probably can't get a word in edgeways! Listening is just as important as speaking, even when young.

You can give him instructions to follow-e.g. please put the cup on the table for me.

Haven't read the whole thread yet but here's a slightly different angle on it.

I did a couple of Uni courses in child development. Coming at it from that angle, there is a reason why folk in the Western world are told to talk to their kids. I should add a dsiclaimer that the stuff to follow is generalising quite a bit but it gives the flavour of the research that was done.

In many developing countries, mums return to some form of work (even if it's household stuff like taking washing down to the communal water source to be washed) almost immediately after having a baby. Baby gets strapped to Mum and along they go too. In those sorts of settings, it is actually quite rare for Mum to spend much time talking to the baby. As one interviewee said 'Why would I talk to him? He can't answer me.' However, because the Mum is out and about in her community, the baby is surrounded by words. They may not all be directed at him but language is part of their world. It is worth noting though that across all cultures, when people do talk to (young) babies, they drop into a form of speech known as motherese. It seems to be instinctive and designed to make the language easier for the infants to follow (lots of repetition, high pitch, slowed speech etc).

In western societies, babies most emphatically do not return to work along with their mothers! In fact, Mum tends to become quite isolated at home, just her and the baby with the odd visitor. So if she's not talking to the baby, it's not hearing language. So the accepted wisdom has become that you must spend lots of time chatting to your baby.

For your situation, I think your son has learnt a critical lesson - he knows how to entertain himself. That's an important life skill and one that, if you jump on his every move, he will not get the chance to develop. So pat yourself on the back for that. In terms of talking to him, I think you have to consider the balance of time alone vs time chatting. If you are doing lots of other activities and talking to him while engaged with those then you are well on the right path. Maybe it will only take a few extra minutes every hour or so to just join in and ask him what he's doing. A quick chat at bedtime is good as well (a 'what did you do with your day'). But you certainly don't want to swing so far the other way that he forgets that he can play by himself. It's just a question of balance. Boys are generally slower to speak than girls - the gap isn't there forever! - but if you do think he's a bit behind maybe just up the chat time a little bit and see how it goes.

Sounds fine to me. DS1 was the sort of toddler who liked to entertain himself and could play happily without me, he seemed to prefer that, he never shuts up now.

DS2 is more of a 'hands on' child.

I think as long as you are speaking to him normally, like 'right, time for dome lunch, what would you like?' and that sort of dtuff, there is no need to rabbit on at him like some people seem to do with children.

You really have to respond to the DC that you have and let them lead a bit. There are parents who have a largely silent DC who have to fill every minute with sound, as a person who loves silence, I would find it very trying.
Some, very clever, DCs just like to observe and take in a lot and then suddenly come out with it later. DS1 was like that, didn't say much at 2 yrs but then suddenly started talking in sentences with a very advanced vocabulary. I dare say that your SIL would have written him off-he spent ages playing with cars and trains.

Mummy 'Oooh, shall we have carrots and peas with dinner'
Child 'ugg derr dek'
Mummy 'what a good idea, lets have both, ooh, peas and carrots. That will be nice'
Child 'unk'
Mummy 'I know, daddy WILL be home soon, that's right'.

Can't remember who posted this (sorry) but it's called protoconversation. It shows children how a conversation is structured. Research on even quite young babies (six months or so) shows that they can start to understand this concept (so Mum talks to them, holding eye contact, for a few seconds and then pauses. Baby then fills in the gap with a gurgle, and then stops and waits for Mum's response/reaction). It is just about them learning that conversation means talking and then listening from both parties. You don't have to say anything massively meaningful, or get a War and Peace length response, it is just about your DS beginning to figure out how conversation works.

And I said ask questions. Ignore me. I do use questions but I answer them myself. ('Is that the blue car? Yes, I think you've got the blue car.' 'Are you clever? Yes, you are - a very clever girl.') Same with the bedtime chat. My dd is having a bottle so I do the chatting. ('Now what did we do today? Let's see, first of all, after we got up, we went to the park. Did you like it? I think you did'). That's just the way I talk (I talk like that to my dog too!!) and it doesn't seem to be doing my dd any harm.

There are loads of ways to raise a child, carried out by many different types of people who vary in how much they like to talk, and most of them turn out ok. Your son seems to be doing fine and is probably a lot better than many.

Just noticed this thread again and Josierosie - you've quite offended me! My post on page one basically said that the OP was doing fine as she is and then suggested the same thing Ragged did and you said her advice was good.
Innish - I do hope you understood me. When I said "don't be ridiculous" I really mean, that while it isn't ridiculous to worry, you are doing a lot so don't worry about your own effort.
Josierosie - please reread and I'll be happy with an apology.
Questions versus comments - I do as Baby by the sea when I ask questions and carry on the conversation. It happens that I wrote questions in my post, but when you do ask questions you aren't expecting a serious answer, any response you get means you can continue the "conversation".

working9while5 No, that's fine thank you - she has no hearing problems as of yet, if she has the same thing as me it probable won't develop until late teens. But if she will adapt then that's fine, if it seems like she isn't I'll think about taking things further.

babybythesea - that peas and carrots thing is exactly the sort of conversation that I hate having. I was no good at role play in drama at school, loathe having to do that sort of thing on training courses, and I don't do it with my children. Once they come out with stuff that actually sounds like words, then I'll attempt to understand them and respond, but not when it's just babbling. I wish that I did have that skill, but it's just not me - and they seem to be okay.

harecare, I'm sorry if I offended you. However, I thought your tone was harsh and unhelpful and unfair on the OP. The examples you gave were all questions. As I explained to OP, it feels really natural to ask loads of questions of a young child because instinctively we feel it will 'make them talk' because a questions demands an answer. I explained why questions are not useful with young children and advised OP not to follow your advice. I stand by that.

Harecare, they weren't really questions, though.. were they? The function of "are you having fun with your cars?" in the description and "Yes, that's the yellow one, isn't it?" is to comment, not to seek information. It just happens to have a question mark at the end of it.

It's really not strictly true that questions are not helpful with young children.

This is why I don't like "language development by numbers" because there are no hard and fast rules. As an SLT, I like you will have seen parents who bombard kids with non-stop questions, where a child never gets a word in edgeways and where the questions detract from the child's point of focus. That can be a problem. That is not going to be true of all questions and questions, being part of normal everyday conversation, are necessary in everyday input as much as commenting. There just needs to be balance.

As the mother of a 20 month old, I can tell you I ask lots of these "questions" but they are conversational, in the same way that the rising intonation of motherese invites turntaking and response. Have you finished that honey? Oh no, I can't find the keys (again!) Where are the keys? Do you want some pasta? Do you want pasta or toast? Where's the dog? What does the cow say?

Questions are naturally inbuilt into language development and black and white statements are unhelpful here.

The questions that are unhelpful are primarily academic-focus e.g. 'what's that?' over and over again, where you are constantly trying to extract information without really giving any input. You can't get it out if you don't put it in...

Conversational balance is what's needed, and that's something that can be hard if you have a child with delayed or disordered language or communication. SLTs can be helpful with supporting children who have delay and disorder but, you know, most people get by just fine working on their instincts and talking to their children as they were talked to themselves. Unless there is an issue that hinders speech and language development, specific advice on parent and child interaction to support language development is probably not very necessary for the majority.

Sorry, that was to JosieRosie - confused names!

working9while5, you have probably helped to clarify what I was saying so thank you! You're absolutely right that questions are an important part of language and there are times when you have to ask your child a question, and the examples you gave are great ones.

HOWEVER, I still stand by the advice I give, which is that closed questions are not useful in play time. If you're asking a question, like 'are you having fun with your cars?', but meaning it as a comment, then just make a comment! This removes pressure on the child to talk, and ensures they are fully in the lead during play.

Children's speech development varies considerably. Some children are late bloomers when it comes to speech. The problem is that there is no easy way to distinguish later bloomers from children who major speech delay. Development is a journey not a race.

My son was late learning to speak because of glue ear. DD has been frightfully early with her speech, yet both children have been parented in a similar fashion.

I suggest reading lots of stories to your son if you find playing cars boring.

Children also need to develop other skills other than speech. For example fine motor skills can be developed through small world play.

dearie dearie me :(

Why do you stand by that, though? Do you have sufficient evidence that it is unhelpful to use these types of questions in the normal run of things?

I am not trying to be critical of you personally here JosieRosie, but I think as a profession we have to be very careful not to extrapolate too far beyond the evidence and we just don't have enough of it to say that "closed questions are not useful in playtime" when it comes to typical language development.

I am Irish (I am guessing Innish maybe too, as it's an Irish placename) and commenting in Hiberno-English typically has a tag question at the end, "that's a lovely red car, isn't it", "he's going to crash now, isn't he". "We'll go into town now, will we?"

In most typical parent-child interactions, there is limited evidence that children feel pressure to talk. Taking the lead in play is not an essential aspect of language development, it is a social construction which is relevant to our culture at this juncture in history.

We need to separate out, as a profession, what is helpful when things are going wrong (and by wrong, I mean wrong, not that a child comes from a different social background to his therapist) and what is part of the broad spectrum of normal human development and interaction.

Fascinating thread. I feel bad that I don't chat away to my 6mth old enough, and also plan to retrain as a SALT once I've popped any future DC out. Have learnt loads.

As you were.

Good Giraffes, glad you have found it useful! Hope you enjoy your future profession - there are not nearly enough of us to meet demand so you will be very welcome!

JosieRosie, did you just give me a ?

Giraffes, it's a great profession. My only advice would be that from the outset, learn to challenge and critically appraise everything you are told and everything you read. I have been working a good number of years and with every passing year I realise how little we really do know about this fascinating area of human development.

I would like to see all SALTs act as a consultant in a hospital might - clinically appraising the best evidence and sharing this with clients in a scientific way e.g. "we don't know enough about x to say for certain if it will help to do y, but what we do know suggests that y is a good start...". There are NO absolutes in this job and a lot of it is trial and error based on the best available fit of evidence from a very broad range of disciplines (linguistics, psychology, education, health etc). It's only been around a few generations and although the research base has grown, nothing can be taken for granted.

At its best, it's a fascinating application of science, sort of like being a detective, trying to work out what's going on and find a solution. It is priceless when that works. At it's worst, it can be a bit paint by numbers which dilutes its value. If you read posts on the Special Needs Children forum, there are many where people have felt badly let down by generic advice. It's sobering reading for a professional but you can learn a lot about the limitations of the profession before you get into it from talking to parents who have good and bad experiences.. When I decided to be a SALT, I had been working with one and I thought what she did was magic.. it all seemed so mysterious and scientific. Now I look back and realise that it was all a pile of poo based on nothing at all. Thankfully I have met many SALTs since who do a fantastic job, too.. but it's not easy before you're in to make a judgement either way. Good luck with it!

"at its worst" not it's...

I had these worries with DD. She's now 5.

Sometimes I would only realise how quiet I had been because I would give her a start when I spoke to her.

She would always be quite happy playing on her own and didn't seem to need me at all. Sometimes I wopuld get her started on something and then she wouldn't want me anyway.
If she did need me for anything I was in the same room obviously, but maybe doing the ironing or something and we were both engrossed in our own things.

Admittedly I did have bad PND problems and when I got over the worst, I felt I could get down on the floor and play with her more.

I've always worreid that her speech delay problems have come from me not talking to her as much, but the HV said (a few times) that she was fine. She had definite understanding and could follow instructions etc, but when she started preschool me and DH were the only ones who could understand every single word.

The speech therapy assessor said she had above average vocabulary and understanding and sentence formation etc - it was just the sound formation that was delayed.

I'd always hated all that role playing stuff - I can't do it, I've got NO imagination at all, I don't 'get' it and I never did find it was something entertaining or worthwhile when I was a kid. Remember all those 'Mummies and Daddies' games, or 'Doctors and Nurses'??

I would always do my best to get out it and try and do something else instead.

DD also loves dressing up which I disliked too- it's almost as if she's my girlie 'altar-ego'!
She has just gone out with DH, all dressed up in her Snow White costume, and he's not embarassed at all but I make her get changed if we are going shopping because I'm a bad and unfun mum and I can't stand it!

BUT - I have always sat with her and read books, counted things, done colouring in with her, play dough, toddler groups, walks, visits to the park, sang songs with her, answered questions she has about anything etc etc and she's doing fantastically well.

I wouldn't worry OP - it sounds like you are doing everything you can when you need to. I've come to the conclusion the hard way that there is always something as a mum you will feel guilty about. He sounds lovely and he will be absolutely fine. Sometimes, it's worrying about other people's opinions that cause you to worry when you wouldn't have done otherwise. By all means, use it as a reminder to make effort when you don't feel like it/feel too busy etc, but do NOT beat yourself up when you are doing a great job already!