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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think that a mum of two should not be jailed for

320 replies

Mitmoo · 13/08/2011 11:37

taking a pair of shorts that her friend stole in the riots.

She's got six months.

A young man who took £3.50 worth of water from a ransacked shop got six months.

I want justice, I want those who terrified my family even though we were fortunate enough to only view it through the television screen to be punished but I want some kind of proportionality.

Do we remove mum's from their children for six months because she took a pair of shorts from a friend who had been in the riots?

It was wrong of course, she should have shopped the "friend" but six months????

menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1455638_mum-jailed-for-six-months-for-wearing-pair-of-looted-shorts-

OP posts:
coccyx · 13/08/2011 13:38

Whats relevance of her having children.
Tough

TandB · 13/08/2011 13:38

She almost certainly IS using a duty solicitor. Duty solicitor status is a qualification that the vast majority of criminal solicitors are expected to take as soon as they have been qualified long enough. Very few practicing solicitors are not duty qualified. There are a few who failed the exams and didn't resit and there are a few who are office based and don't bother with it, but almost every practicing solicitor will be found on the duty rotas.

To be honest, if someone tells me they are not a duty solicitor, my immediate assumption is that they are newly qualified, not active in court or just crap.

Just because she didn't wait till she got to court to instruct her solicitor doesn't make that solicitor some special 'non duty' solicitor. All the court duty solicitor is is whichever practicing solicitor in that area who happens to be on the rota that day.

We are not in the US with a public defender system.

fgaaagh · 13/08/2011 13:39

"Putting women in prison doesn't work"

But this is just another facet of our society that seeks to link "women = primary child carers".

I have a fundamental problem with that, because it feeds into all walks of life where this link isn't beneficial to women e.g. discrimination at work, the assumption that once you have children you're less commited.

Women can't demand equality of opportunity on one hand, and claim special circumstances in another.

Either we want to be forever tied to the role of "default primary caregiver", and we surrdender some of the bonuses of being seen as such, or we demand true equality of opportunity.

In this case, that would say: "whatever gender of the person commiting the crime is dealt with the same." No matter if this person happens to have a penis or a vagina.

Don't you see why, even though for the children of the women involved in these specific cases, it's sad that their mums are going to jail... it's better for us all that they receive no special consideration because they happen to be mothers?

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe2726 · 13/08/2011 13:42

Agree with MrsDVeere... pink jumpsuits and a lot of old-fasioned hard work putting right the damage done would work wonders.

There's a prison governor in Florida who advocates a hard line approach to prisoners and they're not given any priviledges, no tv, plain meals, chance to learn a trade and be rehabilitated but no soft options. That's how it should be.

If David Cameron is saying 'three to a room' then good. It will bring the cost down and take away the feelings of 'entitlement' that many prisoners seem to have in respect of their rights.

I don't know if there's time for the courts to actually consider proportional sentencing. It is tough on the children but what's the alternative? This woman, like others, can't get away with it. There needs to be a punishment and a deterrent from offending again. Perhaps this isn't right but take 'handling of stolen goods' - it's an offence, undoubtedly - but is it worse from a shop or from a person, do we make a distinction? Is it more acceptable during 'peace time' than during a riot when many people are losing everything?

I have no problem with the punishments but they must be a deterrent otherwise reoffending is inevitable.

MadamDeathstare · 13/08/2011 13:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

didyouseewhatshedid · 13/08/2011 13:45

PerryCombover you are talking out of your arse and desperatly scrabbling around for stats to support your woolly liberal views. Why not, JUST FOR THIS ONCE, can the liberal left not admit that people who got caught - whatever their goddam background - had it coming to them? I wish, I really do, that some feral scumbag would rob you blind and then see what punishment you'd like to see dished out. FFS.

Catslikehats · 13/08/2011 13:47

Echo kungfu re duty sols. I am Shock how many people seem to think that we operate the equiv of the US public defender system. We don't.

Interesting point re bail kungfu I wonder if they were justifying witholding it on the basis that the defendents were likely to commit further offences whilst the rioting was ongoing.

I think it is worth reiterating that sentences of this length are not unusual in London when sentenced by District Judge.

PerryCombover · 13/08/2011 13:48

Shellyboobs that post was really uncalled for and vile

thefirstMrsDeVere · 13/08/2011 13:50

I dont think duty solicitors are rubbish. I am hardly qualified to make that assumption!

I do think that they are going to be run off their feet and I do think you are more likely to get a better deal if you have plenty of money to throw around.

clam · 13/08/2011 13:51

Maybe there are better ways of spending the £25K necessary for imprisoning these people. But frankly I think it is worth it in the long term if it acts as a deterrent to other idiots who think it's worth jumping on the looting bandwagon.

PrincessScrumpy · 13/08/2011 13:52

I have a feeling she must be a repeat offender - plus, with probabtion she'll be out in 3 months. There's an easy way not to end up in court, don't break the law. Simple.

sunshinenanny · 13/08/2011 13:53

David cameron may say three in a room Hmmbut I doubt if it will be long before someone jumps in with Human Rights law.

I think making the ones who commited this type of crime do clean up and comunity service would be more useful and cost effective.

Iv'e decided I no longer like the country I was born in and once enjoyed being part of and that really saddens me.Sad

The woman in question was greedy and stupid but I still feel her children don't deserve to be punished.

PerryCombover · 13/08/2011 13:53

I think it's quite wrong to ask for me to be robbed blind because I don't agree with you or your viewpoint.

I'm not desperately scrabbling around for stats. There are miles and miles of stats stating that prison sentences for women are increasing at an alarming rate and that they simply don't work.

Saying it is an anti feminist point to include children into consideration of sentence given is nonsense as factually the majority of permanent caregivers are women.

Jodianna · 13/08/2011 13:55

An interesting point regarding current sentencing:One of Britain's most prominent human rights lawyers has likened "heavy-handed" and politicised treatment of student protesters to the brutal victimisation of the miners during the strikes of the Thatcher era.

Michael Mansfield QC said "outrageous" tactics were being employed to quash political protest and peaceful demonstrations in the UK, within politics, the police and the judiciary.

Known for taking on some of the highest-profile cases of recent years ? including the Stephen Lawrence murder trial, the Guildford Four case and the defence of Barry George, who was convicted of the murder of Jill Dando but then acquitted at a retrial ? Mansfield revealed that he is to leave partial retirement to act on behalf of Alfie Meadows, a 20-year-old student who suffered head injuries during a tuition fees protest last December.

Meadows, who was left with brain damage after being allegedly struck on the head with a police officer's baton, is awaiting trial on charges of violent disorder. Mansfield said the right to protest in Britain was under serious threat and that people who wanted to go on peaceful demonstrations now had to weigh up the risks they faced from heavy policing and draconian sentencing.

"We praise those in the Arab spring and condemn the force used against them by their governments, yet allow our own rights to be eroded," he said. "What is happening here? A direct attack is being made on the right of people to go out on the streets and show their solidarity and unity with others of the same opinion and hold peaceful protest."

His warning came amid controversy at unusually harsh prison sentences handed down to students Charlie Gilmour, 21, and Francis Fernie, 20. Fernie was jailed for a year for throwing two sticks at police lines at TUC anti-cuts protests. Gilmour was sentenced to 16 months for "outrageous and deeply offensive behaviour". He had thrown a bin at a Rolls-Royce carrying Prince Charles, kicked at shop windows and swung off a war memorial. Both claimed to have "got carried away in the heat of the moment" and offered profuse apologies.

Gilmour's mother, Polly Samson, who is married to Pink Floyd guitarist Dave Gilmour, called her son's sentence a waste of taxpayers' money. An appeal is to be heard this week. She believes students were paying a "very heavy" price under a "catch-all" charge of violent disorder. Cambridge University has not confirmed whether Gilmour will be allowed to continue his studies after serving his sentence.

Mansfield and other leading legal figures believe Gilmour and Fernie were made scapegoats to show disapproval of public objections to government policy at a time when the process of democracy was weakened by the disempowering of politicians by the expenses scandal.

"There is a direct comparison to what was going on during the miners' strike," said Mansfield, "a shameful tradition ? of riot squads or tactical support groups or response units, whatever you want to call them. They go in hard and heavy, and the whole idea is to intimidate, not those who are not intending to commit crime, but those who are presenting opposition to the government."

He attacked the brutality that can come from a "unit mentality". "When there is a culture of a unit, they share a uniform, they share an ethos, things can get out of control and that is something that has run from Blair Peach through to Ian Tomlinson [the newspaper vendor who died after being attacked by a police officer] and I fear the police still haven't got their heads round this at all.

"They have to be reminded that there is a right to peaceful protest in Britain and it worries me how many cases that shouldn't ever have left the ground are ending up in the courts when there may have been an inconvenience to the public, a trespass, but nothing criminal."

He said it was a low-level politicisation. "I don't think it's done at cabinet level, but there is a very strong consciousness in the echelons of power of making examples of people."

Mansfield, who has been asked to stand for the chancellorship of Cambridge University, says that a 1966 UN agreement commits states to aim to provide free further education, so tuition fee protesters were on the side of the law.

Many lawyers are concerned at the age of those facing court for little more than getting over-excited or scared by police kettling techniques and horse charges. Some 200 officers have been assigned to finding those who took part in the UK Uncut sit-ins and the tuition fees protests.

Raj Chada, a lawyer with Hodge Jones & Allen who represented Jonathan May-Bowles, the man jailed for throwing shaving foam at Rupert Murdoch, said he had real concerns that a person now arrested during a political protest could expect harsher treatment than someone who committed a similar offence when not at a protest: "The fact they are at a political protest is now being treated as an aggravating factor, rather than a mitigating factor."

The tough approach by police and judges was having its desired effect, he said. "When I have spoken to protesters, some on the fringes say they do not want to go on protests any more. There are real concerns that the judiciary is being unduly harsh on political protesters."

The judge who presided over the Gilmour and Fernie cases refused their appeals for community service orders.

Catslikehats · 13/08/2011 13:56

Re the more woman in prison statistics and high reoffending rates much of the reason for this is that a higher proportion of female inmates, compared to male are drug addicts. In addition more woman in prison are addicts than not (Off the top of my head the stats are about 65%)

Drug addicts are often not suitable for community penalties, especially in areas where there are inadequate facilities to treat addiction. It is therefore likely that where the custody threshold has been passed, prison is more likely to be the only suitable sentence for a woman than a man.

Additionally repeat offending is higher for drug addicts than those who are not.

ShellyBoobs · 13/08/2011 13:57

PerryCombover Your opinion of my post isn't important to me. Thanks.

thefirstMrsDeVere · 13/08/2011 13:59

I dont think people are making the connection regarding what is happening now and what may well happen to them in the future if they happen to disagree with something.

And feel the need to protest.

Peacefully

Lawfully

Decently

fgaaagh · 13/08/2011 14:03

Saying it is an anti feminist point to include children into consideration of sentence given is nonsense as factually the majority of permanent caregivers are women.

PerryCombover that's precisely what I have a problem with. Did you read my post?!

Rhinestone · 13/08/2011 14:03

No sympathy whatsofuckingever with anyone getting imprisoned or evicted. Reap the whirlwind. It doesn't matter that someone looted a £3.50 bottle of water - theft is theft.

My sympathy is with that poor man in Ealing, that Malaysian student, the families of the three men in Birmingham and the countless people who have seen their businesses destroyed or have lost their jobs in those businesses.

Salmotrutta · 13/08/2011 14:04

Frankly if I saw someone swinging off a war memorial, throwing a bin at a car and smashing windows I'd be expecting a fairly substantail prison sentence.
"Heat of the moment" indeed - utter rubbish.

didyouseewhatshedid · 13/08/2011 14:05

Oh come on thefirstMrsDeVere. This will have no impact at all on peaceful protests and you are being disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Salmotrutta · 13/08/2011 14:06

Oops that was in response to the Michael Mansfield article. Blush

Georgimama · 13/08/2011 14:10

Jodianna, what has that article got to do with the riots? They weren't protesting about anything, they were rioting, looting and attacking passers by. Taking an opportunity to get some new trainers for free. You are aware five people have died, I take it?

ShellyBoobs · 13/08/2011 14:11

Rhinestone - I totally agree. The apologists and appeasers appall me.

OpinionatedPlusSprogs · 13/08/2011 14:20

Everything thefirstmrsdevere has said.

Also, injustice will make people angrier.

Prison riots next...

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