AIBU to think that a mum of two should not be jailed for

[Mitmoo]

taking a pair of shorts that her friend stole in the riots.

She's got six months.

A young man who took £3.50 worth of water from a ransacked shop got six months.

I want justice, I want those who terrified my family even though we were fortunate enough to only view it through the television screen to be punished but I want some kind of proportionality.

Do we remove mum's from their children for six months because she took a pair of shorts from a friend who had been in the riots?

It was wrong of course, she should have shopped the "friend" but six months????

menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/s/1455638_mum-jailed-for-six-months-for-wearing-pair-of-looted-shorts-

You make it sound as if that were a new phenomena!

As long as they stay within sentencing guidelines, then political influence is limited. It's when politicians (especially Home Secretaries) intervene beyond what is permitted by law that we get the dangerous and potentially precedent setting actions.

meditrina thanks for the link. There wont be any for arson yet as they won't be dealt with by Magistrates but by the Crown Courts. It is valid to make comparisons between stealing water/shorts/gum outside of a rioting situation which would get a caution or other extremely light sentence and in a rioting situation when it goes to the other extremes of attracting maximum sentences.

Of course we all expect all caught up in the rioting and thieving to be punished more severely than in ordinary circumstances but six months for water, five for shorts etc. is extreme IMO.

Are they staying within guidelines? From what kfp says, it doesn't sound like it.

The woman get longer prison sentences in increased numbers is a regular argument on the feminist boards. Despite it being repeated frequently and alleged that the stats are "easily googleable" I have yet to see convincing evidence.

It maybe that someone said it once and therefore it is true Even if it is true I wish someone woul reflect on the evidence that this may well be due, at least in part, to the increased drug abuse among the female prison population and that the stats bear out the assertion that "drug addicts are more regularly sentenced to prison and for longer".

Ho hum

They are staying within guidelines re sentence (although not bail)

The difficulty is that the vast majority of defendents (esp those who appear in provincial cts in front of lay benches) receive well below the "guidelines".

As I have said it is not uncommon AT ALL for a District Judge sitting in London to sentence 4-6mths for a straight forward shoplifting where it is not a first offence.

I think we must also bear in mind that we are not in possession of the full facts, only what we have read in the media.

I don't get why possession of a knife during a riot gets 6 weeks and handling stolen goods when not in the riot gets 5 months? Just looking at The Guardian link.

If you want to talk harsh sentences, I think Richard Bowes got one. Being beaten to death for asking people to stop lighting his bins on fire, not that's OTT.

She knew what she was doing. YABU.

Now that's OTT, I meant.

kfp's posts gave me pause for thought too, but I thought it wasn't actually possibly for a magistrate to give a sentence longer than their permitted maximum (Clerk of Court will advise). And I believe it is correct that offences committed during riots do carry longer sentences as the disturbance is an aggravating factor.

I would be interesting if kfp could expand on what she said yesterday - is the point of concern excessive sentences (within guidelines), actual breach of guidelines, excessive referral to higher courts, or - separate from sentencing guidelines - excessive refusal of bail?

Also, any feel for roughly how many cases are affected? Is is happening at all magistrates' courts (realise that can only be word on the street)? And how long will it take for eg appeals and overturns to be heard?

They have stayed within the guidelines.

Handling

Title: Theft

Offence: Handling

Legislation: S22 Theft Act 1968

Commencement Date:

Mode of Trial: Either Way

Statutory Limitations & Maximum Penalty: 14 years
Grave Crime

Sentencing Range: 14 years

Culpability & Harm

1.the closeness of the handler to the original offence: geographical (present or near the primary offence) or temporal (ie instigated or encouraged the primary offence or soon after provided a safe haven or route of disposal);

2.a high level of seriousness of the original offence;

3.high value of the goods to the loser (including sentimental value);

4.the fact that the goods handled were the proceeds of a domestic burglary;

5.a high degree of sophistication in the commission or organisation of the handling;

6.a high level of profit made, or expected to be made, by the handler;

7.the fact that the handler provided a regular outlet for stolen goods;

8.threats of violence or abuse of power by the handler over others (eg an adult commissioning children to steal, or a drug dealer pressurising addicts to steal in order to pay for their habit);

9.commission of the offence while the offender was on bail.

Aggravating & Mitigating Factors

Sophistication - professional hallmarks
Destination of goods - resale
Origins of goods - home, school or hospital
Impact on victim
Level of profit
Role of offender.

Relevant Sentencing Guidelines (If Any)

SENTENCE ADVISORY PANEL 2001

R v WEBBE AND OTHERS [2002] 1 Cr.App.R.(S.) 22 (at 82): [2001] EWCA Crim. 1217

Property

Mitmoo: you're right.

According to the guidelines and assuming that a riot counts as dangerous circumstances, then they should have been referred for sentences over 6 months. Even if arrested away from dangerous circumstances, it looks shorter than the maximum.

Then again, as pointed out by claw3, in the eponymous case of this thread she too received well below the maximum sentence possible. So perhaps the actual trend is for lighter sentences than the maximum?

FellatioNelson, what type of person goes with their sandwiches to watch someones house burn down or people loot or kill, and what type of mother lets her child.

One thing more sicking were people almost going on a day out to watch

If its your home ,shop,your a journalist or out to take pictures of looters to aid the police then fair enough but just to decide wow people are looting lets go and have a look

Did that boy who was watching aid the police in any way in from them were there looters were going next, take pictures to aid the police in their capture at a later date I very much doubt it

Mitmoo possession of an offence weapon.

Possess offensive weapon

Title: Offensive weapons

Offence: Possess offensive weapon

Legislation: Prevention of Crime Act 1953 Section 1

Commencement Date:

Mode of Trial: Either way

Statutory Limitations & Maximum Penalty: 4 years

Sentencing Range:

Aggravating & Mitigating Factors

Specific planned use of the weapon

Hostility towards a minority group or individual. Racially/reg aggravated

Acting under the influence of drugs or drink.

Very dangerous weapon.

Group action.

Location

No attempt to use.

No premeditation

Carried on a temporary basis

Acting out of genuine fear

Relevant Sentencing Guidelines

Poulton and Celaire [2003] 1 Cr App R (S) 116
Where the weapon is ancillary to another more serious offence a concurrent sentence will be appropriate. Where the weapon is distinct and independent, a consecutive sentence will be appropriate.

Although some weapons are more serious than others the nature of the weapon will not be the primary determinant, as this will depend on its intended use. But the nature of the weapon may shed light on the offenders intention eg if the weapon is offensive per se.

R v Buzzer [1996] 2 Cr App R (S) 271
Possession of a flick knife. Good character but pleaded NG. 3 months prison.

R v Dorado [2006] 1 Cr App R (S)
Road rage type case. D pulled out meat cleaver on another driver. No intention of premeditated violence. D worked as chef. 6 months prison. (And 6 months concurrent to an affray charge arising out of same incident).

R v Proctor [2000] 1 Cr App R (S) 295
D in possession of plastic bottle containing ammonia, capable of causing discomfort but not permanent injury. NG plea, pre cons. 9 months.

Do you see the difference now between carry a knife and handling?

Aside from mitigating/aggravating features specific to the offences, the Court have to consider those specific to the defendent.

The most significant of these will be whether the defendent had previous convictions and then whether they entered a guilty plea. Incidentally although guidelines suggest a third off for a timely guilty plea, it is unlikely this will be applied where the evidence was overwhelming (i.e. where the defendant is easily identified in CCTV pics etc)

Without knowing the individuals circumstances and offending history comparing sentencing outcomes is fairly futile.

Exactly Thequeen, there is also going to be a margin of difference, depending on which Judge you are up before as these are only minimum and maximum guidelines

I gave these examples to try to explain to Mitmoo that is it a bit more complex that it 'just being a pair of shorts' or 'just a bottle of water' and that the Court has differianted.

Claw Exactly.

IME the biggest single variation is location of the court. London Magistrates' Courts sentence far more harshly than many of the provincial Courts.

Things that would routinely attract a custodial sentence at Thames/Highbury/Camberwell can get nothing more than a fine outside of London (Places like Reading/Basildon/Chatham - I don't know about other big cities like Manchester/Liverpool - no experience of mags there and Crown doesn't have the disparity)

Equally there are several "robust" sentencers in London and I have had clients abscond from ct thus breaching their bail conditions (which is another offence) rather than be sentenced by some tribunals, because they know they will get a more severe sentence and would rather take their chances being sentenced for two offences by a more lenient tribunal.

I agree Thequeen, are you a solicitor?

I think we also have to remember that the Judges are only human and personal opinions, sympathy or not, public outrage etc depending on the crime can influence their decisions and is applied to certain cases, to a certain degree.

Claw I used to be a criminal barrister in the dim and distant past (I suppose I still am but I don't practise crime - or much else!- these days)

My nephew has just become a barrister, 6 years of hard work to get there, i admire anyone who spends that amount of time in pursuit of a profession.

TQoD and mayorquimby some of the stats used can be backed up by the fawcett society and the prison reform trust.
I know it might not suit your argument Quimby but it doesn't make it untrue.

Awaits lack of govt approved stats bleating

maypole I know from having sneaked a look on my DS's facebook page of several teenagers (not him!) who have boasted of getting on trains to go and 'look' at what was going on in London. To be fair to their mothers, they probably had no idea that their darlings would make a 60 mile journey to so such a thing. They probably sat there watching the TV and thinking 'phew, thank the lord little Johnny is spending the night at his friend's house 5 miles away, playing Twister and watching the Scary Movie box set.'

Of course anyone with any sense would keep their teenagers in, if it was happening a mile or two away, but it really is not as easy as it sounds to always know where older teens are. I'd imagine there was an awful lot of misplaced trust going on on the nights in question.

to do such a thing.

claw good luck to him

Information on the sentencing of women, fully referenced

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