To wonder why all benefits are not limited to two children only

[SuzysZoo]

Ok. I know that this is going to be a bit contentious. I don't mean retrospectively either. I just wonder why, in these cash strapped times, the government doesn't just say that all benefits, child benefit etc should be limited IN THE FUTURE, IN AT LEAST 9 MONTHS TIME, to 2 children per family only...... My point being that if you have more you should support them yourself. AIBU?

'if you are already on benefits, and you have two children, you will not receive any more benefits (including child benefit) if you choose to have subsequent children whilst you are in that situation

I'd modify that

I;d say no extra cash; kids still benefit (and we benefit long term) from having decent food etc

I'd say extra benefits to be paid in vouchers after 2 if parents on benefits at time of conception.

Housing is a bit of a thing anyohow I used to have famillies with 5 kids in 2 bed houses: I know famillies now where kids are disabled and parents sleep on sofa and still cannot get a bigger place, the famillies who never worked are most likely going to be those, the ones in council rather than private housing sector.

Sure ThisIsANiceCage you can look it up on The Center for Disease Control and Prevention. You need to do some cross references with government policies though as obviously it's raw data. In 2002 they stopped housing teen mums and expected the grandparents to care for both teen and baby. The teenage birth rate continued to fall and actually only started to increase again when they brought in welfare reforms in 2007. Coincidence or not?

Um, so these are raw figures uncorrected for anything else that was going on, or even for reporting levels? And may not actually have been affecting the same groups of people - most stuff in the US is at state or even city level, so national figures may not remotely match what's happening in City X with policy Y.

Sorry, it's just your statement has been picked up by other people, so it matters whether it's actually true or just a vague tossing together of possibly unrelated data sets. [nerd emoticon]

Northerngirl even if it's not coincidence it's certainly not the system I have been paying my taxes for!

The famillies I supported- well the ones that got pg really young were better off away from their parents anyhow, at least in many cases.

For me it is better to ensure the welfare of babies being expected by teen mums than anything else: teen education and pregnancy prevention is a priority, but a lower one. I;d rather pay higher taxes tbh than see one teen mum pushed into a termination she didn't want or the mum left to the mercy of carers who don' want her or just tell her to eff off anyway regardless of what the state expects.

Carpetlover, I think my exH was a much better actor than your fist boyfriend. And very good at telling me that the things that were not quite right were down to me and not to him.

I think what matters more than inexperience or youth of the woman involved is the level of self deceit or determination of the man to appear to be something other than what he is. I think my exH really thought he could will himself straight and would succeed if he tried hard enough; there are plenty of barmy preacher/therapist types running programmes to pray people straight and they have clients falling for it.

Mathanxiety, you are right, of course and I'm certainly not suggesting you should have known. However, maybe age and experience would have given you the confidence to know full well there was nothing wrong with you and that the problem was all his. Glad you got out and got help.

so basically there is no more child poverty than in the UK simply because people know there isn't a safety net?

I doubt it is that uncomplicated. But certainly small family size and a very conservative attitude towards planning a family, with one eye on an uncertain future is pretty much par for the course. Having a smaller family means what few resources are available don't have to be stretched as much as they have to be for a larger family (three kids is considered large here).

Poverty looks different here too, I'd expect Italy to have a far higher level of child poverty on paper compared to say the UK, but I haven't seen the same degree of of social, health and emotional fall out here that was already significantly visible back in the 80s. And here I am comparing Northern Italy to Southern England, both the more expensive\better off ends of the country, but with their large pockets of deprivation, low opportunities and high unemployment and the difficulty of managing on a lower income in a relatively expensive area.

I think other cultural\national factors count for a lot too in terms of what poverty looks like. The parents tend to be older when they start a family, cooking\housework\ironing are national competitive sports, there's a relative lack of consumer pressure compared to the UK (still no regular Sunday shopping here), easy credit was quite new here before the credit crunch changed the state of play so there was less of an adjustment to be made when the party ground to an abrupt halt.

And you can't forget the reliance on the Nonni. In-laws and parents in their sixties tend to have had just one or two kids as well, so the extended family of both parents is often in a good position to divvy up their time and resources to help the next generation. Most of little kids I know are cared for by their grandparents and typically mothers expect to go back to work once the (fairly long) maternity leave is up, often part time, frequently paid under the table (so they don't show up in stats), I know precious few stay at home mothers and can't think of anybody off the top of my head who has either the expectation or inclination to be one. The ones I do know are SAH because they can't find a job, rather than choice. Where a mother is abandoned by a child's father her family (often his too) tend to be willing to plug any gaps they can. Including providing male role models that are constant and very present. There is far smaller sense of the parents being solely responsible for the child's education and upbringing, it seems to be more of a collective effort. (Which can be a bit hard to manage when you are not used to that mindset)

I think there are things Italy could learn from the UK, I do think there should be a better form of welfare than there is currently available, (not that the country could afford it right now), but at the same time I think perhaps it would cause more harm than good if we imported the UK system "as is". Because at this point I'm not sure that more accessible, larger sums of money don't come with with their own negative side effects. Which is new for me, because up until about a week ago I'd have been firmly on the side of more money being a unanimously good thing. Not so sure now.

Maybe in part because the illusion of independence creates a form of isolation, which tears away at family and community ties, so the village is no longer present to help raise the child ?

I guess the issue is, if that is the problem, how the hell do you get back from there ?

I've been here for 16 years (and before that in Thailand which was similar to here in that respect, with knobs on), immersed in the kind of culture that promotes and cultivates that kind of sense of community and family inter reliance and support that may be the answer to what ails England. And yet I still can't get wholly on board with it because I resent "privacy" having to be borrowed from the English language cos no such word exists here, and having my autonomy somewhat squished causing me to get all sharp elbowed and prickly.

Maybe it is too late to go back and get people reconnected again. Perhaps benefits helped kill that inter reliance off to some degree, but possibly the benefits will have to stay as is, because there is no other way to fill the void they potentially helped create.

I think I have just talked myself into feeling an even bigger grey cloud over my head than I've had all week.

I hope a workable solution can be found. I may not live there anymore, or ever again but England still matters to me more than Italy ever will.

Watching it burn and tear itself apart physicaly hurts over here. So god knows what it feels for all of you actually over there.

Fast web in Italy is there a more conservative attitude about Teenage pregnancy. Are there as many unmarried mothers as in Britain?

Should the limitation also apply to maternity treatment on the NHS? Education for 3rd child?

Fast web in Italy is there a more conservative attitude about Teenage pregnancy. Are there as many unmarried mothers as in Britain?

In the last 16 years I've only known two teenage mums. One is the mother of a girl who was in my 11 yo son's class at school. She had her at sixteen, and now she and her husband, who is the father of her first child, also have a little girl of 4. They all lived with her mum until both young parents left education and got established in the working world, and then they married and moved out with both sets of grandparents helping to set them up initially. Her mum and her grandmother are very involved in the bring up of both children because aside from when the mum was on maternity leave with the little one, she too works full time. I've know the mum since her eldest girl and my son were 4\5 yo, they are doing well as a family considering the rocky start they had.

The other one is a 14 years old, I just saw her outside the oratorio (a sort of church based youth club sort of thing), about six months pregnant. To give you an idea of how unusual it is the entire town has had a constant fit of the vapors with added extra mass hand wringing, since they found out. (news tends to travel here, at the speed of light)

The conservative attitude is not what I thought it would be, it manifests more as a profound sadness than anything else. Her mum can't move for people coming up with tears in their eyes and giving their condolences. The only people I've noted getting worked up into a moral state about this pregnancy are her peers.

There are single mothers, marriages are not immune from imploding here, but what is more unusual is women having children outside of an established realtionship (like living together for some years\married) and blended families. I'm not saying people don't go on to have subsequent relationships, they do, (although people don't tend to move in together very quickly, can be years and years of seeing each other but living apart until their kids are older) but they don't tend to automatically have a second child with their subsequent relationships in huge numbers.

I have never come across the "four children by three different fathers" thing here, there is far too much social censure against a revolving door approach to life partners to make that much of an option, but perhaps that sort of family set up is more overblown urban legend than reality in the UK too ?

There are some really depressing and distressing issues in Italy, even up here in the North which people wrongly assume is uniformly wealthy and opportunity filled, but teenage pregnancy and chaotic family set ups doesn't appear to be a notable feature. Yet.

There is always the possibility for growth I suppose. Which is why I'm considering buying one of the dolls that cry when they need feeding, changing etc for my son. God knows I do not intend to rely on the (fairly crap) sex ed at school getting the message across regarding pregnancy, STDs and the need for protection etc, the importance of sex being in the context of a relationship and the lack of a need to rush into it.

I don't think kids are as sophisticated here, they seem quite young compared to the kids of my relatives back in the UK, which may help, but I'm not leaving it to chance. I seriously do not want to be the grandmother-to-be getting condolences in the street every two steps she takes. I would not cope with that on top of all the other stuff they have to deal with, like having to start all over again with a newborn baby, years after you thought that bit was done with.

I think reliance on Nonni is hugely important

When Dh lost a job way abck, I took two and Mum helped out when he got another and we had to juggle shifts; now we ahve no family in the country and - well you don;t know what you have etc.

fastweb 'the four children by 3 different fathers' thing can and does happen in the UK. . I had DD (now 13.5yo) when I was 16yo, her father was just turned 17 when she was born. But our relationship had already finished by the time she was born as I was sent from my Granny's in the top end of Scotland, to a mother and baby unit 600 miles away.

DS1 (now 9.4yo) was born 4 years later, by which point I was married. I would have stayed married, but my Ex-H thought it would be great fun to sleep with my ex-friend in our bed, and couldn't see why on earth I might have a slight problem with that, and want to divorce him. . Added to which he refused point blank to get a job.

I then met someone else, and had DS2 (now 7.8yo), and then fell pg accidentally with DS3 (6.5months). Ex-DP then decided he was too depressed to deal with family life, and bailed. After 8 years together.

So that is how someone can end up with four dc by 3 different fathers. Not so much a revolving door as circumstances.

Am I now meant to stay single forever? Or just until there is no more chance of me falling pg accidentally? As my PCT won't sterilise me, and my epilepsy meds affect birth control? Or should I just kill my baby if I do fall pg?

But Loudlass while I agree you seem to have been unlucky and had a rough time with men, your 'circumstances' have involved making some dubious choices too. I know you've discussed this at length in the past and there are often deep seated ishoos which lead women to make bad choices with men, and timings of PG's but you have along list of excuses there about why it might happen again to you. The over-riding message is that you are not in control of your own destiny or your own ability to control your fertility. It has to be someone else's responsibility but not yours. I'm sure that's not the case, but that's how it comes across.

Fastweb that's a very interesting post about the situation in Italy. I think the young couple you described sound very similar to post-war young families in Britain, when people started to dare to have sex before marriage rather more than they did in previous generations, and it often resulted in people in their late teens having shotgun weddings. The difference is, they generally had better family support than is the case now, and would often start off at home with one set of parents because there would not have been the automatic access/right to housing, and they would have been expected to at least try to make it together as a couple. And young men would have been more likely to have been in regular work, and were expected to 'be a man' from an earlier age.

Of course many of those marriages floundered eventually, but many didn't. The difference is, no-one actually set out to be a young single mother as a lifestyle choice back then - abortion was not readily available and neither was reliable birth control. These days we infantalise our young people in terms of encouraging them to spend as long as possible in education, not expecting them to be financially self-sufficient, or able to run a home or hold down a full time job until they are in their late 20s, (if at all) and yet they are sexualised much earlier, have adult 'rights' much earlier, and are given the luxury of being able to being able to become parents on a whim, several times over, with no planning aforethought, whether there is a long-term, committed, responsible and reliable partner on the scene or not, with no pesky worries about how they will finance any of that - we will do it for them.

Am I the only person who wonders if MN is being trolled/trialled by the coalition to see which policies people might buy in the future?

I spoke to my great aunt at the weekend and she was talking about always being envious of my grandmother as granny had 7 children.
I asked her if she couldn't have any more and she said "No, your uncle said two is all we can afford on a labouring man's wage".
A totally different way to look at it than most people today

But now that is the way the Squeezed Middle have to look at things! Families of more than four children are a luxury that only the very rich and the benefit dependent can afford!

...and not only are the squeexed middle paying for bnakers bonus' via taxation, private pensions, investment products but also for people on benefits.

no wonder they have to limit their own number of children as they are paying for other peoples'.

BertieBotts of course it dose I earn x amount I can only afford one child i don't have anymore bacuse I cannot afford it

These scroungers have 5/6/7 children because every time they have more their money gose up and they can afford it

And they know any time any one with half a brain Trys to tell their get a bloody job the liberal lefties will cry human rights

Amen the only ones who can afford any number of children are trust fund babies and scroungers.

Fellatio - I am currently undergoing conselling to try to deal withmy ishoos caused by my extremely shitty childhood, with a view to helping me to understand my previous bad choices with men, and to make sure that I don't make any more bad choices.

I am also not going to get into a relationship again until a) I have sorted my life out, and b) My PCT deems me to be 'old enough' to be sterilised (32 with 4 dc here, so 2 yrs to go) as I know no contraception is 100% effective in my case.

I feel that these are the only responsible things I can do right now to prevent my situation from getting any worse.

But I do feel like I am getting all the blame here, and the men in my life ge none. DD's father who took 13 yrs to face up to his responsibilities, Ex-H who cheated on me with my 'friend, and ex-DP for walking out when we have a 7yo and a very young baby together because he wanted the freedom his much younger single friends had. All my fault? Or just the part where I fell in love with the wrong people?

Why do you need counselling to not pick loser men and double wrap your contraceptive choices?

Surely it's just common sense and personal responsibility?

There was a woman on itv this morning who had 10 kids with multiple fathers! If we can't draw a line at benefits for two children let's draw the line at five. No one could argue with that surely?

I do find it ironic that the only benefit that is capped to the number of children is the childcare element of tax credits. Meaning that parents with 3/4 or more children often genuinely can't afford to work. If they can cap that then they should cap all benefits. But I do think 2 children is a bit draconian. Maybe 4 would be more appropriate.

I personally don't think it's up to the government to support anyone's CHOICE to have children.

However some bossy boots will come over and start the whole "extreme poverty" nonsense...you know, one console and 2 cars per family is such poverty.

Just to mention - contraception failure, China's one child policy and forced abortion, sundry examples of compulsory sterilisation, eugenics, and our old friend the 3rd Reich. Don't know where to start, really, so won't.

A one child policy is unrealistic, especially in a country where people may still feel the need to try for a son, but I see now reason why we could not have a three child policy. Not go as far as enforced abortions for all, obviously that's hideous. But we should discourage people (or at least stop incentivising them) to procreate way beyond their means.