to think that some mnetters will might have a bick shock

[Laquitar]

when their dcs are teenagers or older?

They might smoke, drink, take drugs and even -horror- decide not to go to university.

Giving them organic strawberries, an early bedtime and storybooks when they are 4yo doesn't guarantee anything.

[sunshinelifeisgood]

yanbu: I have two dc's
25 yr old: had everything i could give him, best trainers, latest sports kits. slept in my bed, had all my love and attention, up until he was 16 he was the apple of my eye. So polite loving etc blah blah blah.... THen he changed.
Result: was smoking dope by the time he was 17 and made my life hell for a couple of years
18 year old: by this time I had learnt a lesson, made her work for everything she has, she is now a kind stable loving teenager who (touch wood) i can honestly say has caused me no trouble.
I am a single parent and have been for a long time but just to add thier father has always been involved. We provided good parenting (do not know where it went wrong with ds) between us.

[exoticfruits]

Of course parenting has a huge impact-it is just that it doesn't guarantee that your teen won't go off the rails. You can't sit back smug, saying it can't happen to mine because I did x,y and z because you really can't tell.

[sunshinelifeisgood]

exotic that is what roughly i have just said. I am and have never been under any illusions about my two kids. One has my personality one the other the dads. We deal with our dc's day to day and try and steer them in the right course. My ds decided to smoke puff for god knows how long :( my dd decided that she was not interested. Depends on the personality of the child I think

[exoticfruits]

You can also get the most gorgeous DC who have a very difficult background and mean, spiteful ones who have a wonderful background in terms of love and attention. Personality plays a huge part-especially in how the personality reacts to your parenting.

[Joolyjoolyjoo]

YAB a bit U. Yes, external influences will be there, but I do believe that a solid base level code of decency will provide a great advantage. I did do some rebellious stuff as a teen (drinking, taking cannabis, lying about where I was going etc) but there was an unconcious line drawn, as I loved and respected my parents a lot, and knew it would hurt me to upset them.

Having been educated by Jesuits, I have seen the "give me the boy until he is 7 and I'll show you the man" and I do believe there is a grain of truth in it. I am no psychologist. In fact, I'm a vet! With puppies, for example, there is a "critical period" for socialisation between about 7-16 weeks, when things become "normalised", and it is harder to change hardwired behaviour (but not impossible) outwith this period, so it is very important to get this part of the pup's life right. I know it is tenuous (and I am very guilty of trying to bring my children up the way I did my dogs! ) but I can't help wondering if there is a similar (but obviously more protracted) period for humans. Whether what a child experiences between the ages of say 1 and 7 becomes "normalised". That is not to say that it is set in stone, but it becomes the basis for normality- things like a stable, loving home, with no fear. To feel worthwhile and capable. To have the courage and confidence that comes from knowing you are loved and cared for. The idea that you have some kind of social and personal morality.

I have 3 children. they are all very different, and DH and I have often joked about how they will be as teens. DD1 (currently 7, and a stickler for rules and fairness) I think will be gobby (as she is now) and defiant (as she is now, when she perceives something as "unfair") , but ultimately I think will reluctantly toe the line, more or less, with much protest and flouncing.

DD2 (6) is a bit sneakier and more of an individual thinker. I imagine she will be a challenge. I think she will get away with whatever she can, and will eschew the arguing for simply doing what she wants (eg staying out all night) and accepting the consequences later. My guess is I will have to keep my wits about me to keep up with her. But I will never stop trying, and she will know I love her, deep down, even if she hates me.

DS (3) is a moody little git. I envision lots of strops, and a fair bit of defiance and swagger. I can see battles between him and DH. He is very very determined, and even at this age I find I have to take a harder line with him, as he is at great risk of being overindulged by his loving sisters and because he is the youngest and only boy.

Will it work out the way I think? Who knows! My dad always said that even in my more obnoxious days, and despite horribly unsuitable boyfriends/ drinking/ bad behaviour, he felt confident that he "knew" me and that I would come through it fine, based on my intrinsic personality and the values they instilled in me. I hope my children will be the same. One thing is for sure, I will never sit back and shrug my shoulders and say "nothing I can do".

[pommedechocolat]

Laquitar - having only read your OP YANBU. I think this a lot when perusing mn.

[jasper]

OP, I think you have a point.
I know several people who talk about "when" their kids (currently at primary school) go to university , assuming both that the kid wants to go, AND will get in.

One highly intelligent friend spoke for years about how their son was going to be a doctor, not even considering the possibility he would not get a place on the course, and sadly, he didn't.

[Joolyjoolyjoo]

Er..I didn't see this as a "if you feed your dc organic strawberries you can plan their future" thread! I thought the OP was trying to say that regardless of what you do, you cannot know how your children will turn out, which is true to a certain point.

To me, I couldn't give a stuff if they don't go to university/ make lots of money/ have a professional job- it's about whether parenting can affect whether or not your child grows into a decent, likeable, law-abiding adult, is it not?

[Tortington]

is this a protest against disposable razors innit blad reeeeeeeeeespec

[Thumbwitch]

sunshinelifeisgood - do you think that there was any influence on your DD from your DS? In that, she saw what a mess he was making of his life and how miserable he was making you and decided to do the opposite?
I sometimes think that siblings go different ways just because they don't want to be like their siblings.
But of course it might just be different personalities.

[exoticfruits]

I would say that it a very sensible parent's summing up of the situation, Joolyjoolyjoo-knowing your DCs and even accepting that your assumption of the teenage years may be wrong.
I think that with that unconditional love they come through and fully agree with the first 7yrs and 'normalised' behaviour.

I think the danger comes with parents who don't actually know their DCs, e.g. the ones who ban sweets and have no idea that their DC is scoffing as many as possible out of their sight and wouldn't believe it if told because their DC is wonderful at looking them straight in the eye and saying 'of course I would rather have an organic strawberry mummy'.
The other danger is the parent who has the life planned out. I can't understand the parent of the primary school DC saying when they go to university, instead of if they go to university. It is a conversation you need to have with your DC when they get to about 14yrs and find out what they want to do.
The other is the parent who is so sure they are right as in 'I have told them that eating animals is cruel'-it doesn't seem to occur to them that their DC might not think it cruel, might want to be a chef or a farmer producing lamb for the table etc.

The important thing is to keep communicating-accept your DC for what they are. There are 2 ways to go with a strong, determined parent who won't listen. 1. open rebellion 2 (more likely) do your own thing in secret and the parent ends up not really knowing them.

[Joolyjoolyjoo]

Ah, right- I see what you mean there, exoticfruits. My parents were under no illusions about me, but their friends had a dd a year or so younger, and who "didn't drink" because she just didn't "like the taste" (actually she was far worse than me!) and who "wasn't interested in boys, thankfully" (hahahahahahaha) My folks, who knew most of what went on, as we did communicate well, had to bite their tongues A LOT, especially when her parents sympathised with mine about me, and stated how lucky they were to have such a well-behaved teen!!!!

So I guess I can see the OP's point after all, and as you say, it is probably more to do with communication, and always keeping the lines open

[exoticfruits]

I maybe didn't express it very well, I just think there is a huge danger that a parent who is so sure they are right is going to get to the stage where they don't know their DC at all because the DC has almost a secret life-in the thought that the parent won't like 'the real me'.
I see posters on here who are so adamant, controlling and possessive that I know that if I was their DC I would play lip service to them and quietly do my own thing, avoiding confrontation.

[StealthPolarBear]

OP do you bother with your children? If so, why?

What a strange, smug, angry OP - fairly sure you are a regular, and tbh I wonder whether your account has been hijacked?

Am also getting slightly tired of the "life only gets harder as your children get older" line too. Very pompous.

[Laquitar]

Joolyjoolyjoo that made me laugh! Hat off to your parents for managing to bite their tongues!

exotic i remember once i said here that i don't know if my dcs will go to university or not (the yougest is 5) and i was told 'well some of us value education' and 'we encourage our dcs'. I think the 'encouragement' is tricky. There is a line between 'encouragement' and planning their life for them. Can you imagine if your parents talk about when you go to university since you were 3 and now you are 16 and you want to tell them that you dream of something else? A friend of mine who was volunteering for a childrens charity told me that they received hundreds of phonecalls from very disstressed teenagers in this situation.

[Laquitar]

'angry op' ? really? I think your post sounds much more angry tbh

Yes i am very regular.

[catgirl1976]

I just see University as the natural extension to school and college, which is why I say "when" not "if". For me, not going would be finishing education early. I would not have a problem with my DC's doing that provided they had a good plan and reason for not going, such as wanting to travel, setting up their own business, starting a career that did not require a degree or doing a different form of training. Even in that situation though I would feel they were missing out on the social experience etc, so would still encourage them to go.

[StealthPolarBear]

do you?
I think we are on different worlds. Just a smug thread out of the blue wagging your fingers at parents who bother with their children.

Do you do anything to improve your DCs' life chances? Why?

[Laquitar]

I think the good thing about uk is that you can go to university later and there are many mature students. In some countries thats not easy.

[catgirl1976]

You can And in many ways you probabty benefit as lot more as a mature student (more focused, more sure of what you want to do) but then the social side isn't as good and I do think that side is a valuable experience

[Laquitar]

Stealth i dont know if you have only read the op or all the thread. The op was not very clear but there is clarification further. I beleive in 'bothering' with your dcs but not to think that this guarantees everything. We have discussed this above and most of us agreed that having a good start gives dcs better chances but it doesn't guarantee the future.

[SiamoFottuti]

nothing guarantees any future. Thats obvious. So your point is what exactly?

[Laquitar]

Yes i agree catgirl. Tbh i didnt live the 'student life'. I didn't have any help and i was working 60 hrs pw. Also my degree wasn't an 'academic' one.

[Laquitar]

siamo you didn't have to revisit the thread if you dont find it interesting. Did you come back to tell us this?

[SiamoFottuti]

I've read the thread. And you just reiterated your original "point". Which appears to be on a par with "rain is wet" or "the sky is blue".

I was wondering if perhaps I'd missed something about your position but it appears not.