"Looting 'fuelled by social exclusion'", "Blackberry messenger used to co-ordinate trouble"

[schomberg]

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/looting-fuelled-by-social-exclusion?intcmp=239

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/08/london-riots-third-night-live?intcmp=239

The concept of a riot fuelled by poverty and exclusion being organised on Blackberries is doing my head in. Is this unreasonable?

Camila Batmanghelidjh and Kids Company do an amazing job for children in desparate situations that your DCs couldn't imagine in their worst nightmares. At least someone is looking at HOW we got to this point not just doing the "put the scum in the stocks" routine which is wholly unhelpful if we want to stop these scenes occurring again.

Read Baby X fromt he senior child protection officer Hackney, enlightening look at how this generation's urban areas have deteriorated so drastically. It is heartbreaking. Behaviour such as that seen over the past 3 days in revolting and those involved are not all massively deprived youths, but don't slate the woman for another viewpoint. A woman who has been at the coal face whilst we've been wiping noses and pushing the trolley round Sainsburys.

The looters don't care, but if we don't look at why they don't care, then the situation will get worse with time and an opportunity to change things for the better will be missed.

As others on this thread have said, explainations are not excuses and knee jerk reactions are damaging, regardless who they come from.

I agree bms and Dione, I'd like to look at that book bms.

There is a thread running through all of these tragedies, that is the lack of accountability of services to the people they serve. Across the board, people are blaming their managers, or the commissioners, or the government for their inability to provide a good service, yet none of them are prepared to put their heads above the parapet and put them to shame. In some ways I see this as the police protesting against the government cuts. Nobody's listening to the police, so why should they risk their lives so PC World doesn't get their windows smashed in?

But children are also let down bigtime. The people on the front line do their jobs but can only do so much in the time that they have. They have very little influence on those that are funding and commissioning, so frequently throw their hands in the air and say 'there isn't enough money to take care of everyone on that level'.

The great thing about children is that they don't have a voice. Abused, neglected and disabled children have even less of a voice. Not all parents are able to look after their children properly, all too often they have normalised abusive parenting practises themselves. It is becoming normalised even in institutions (like Haringey). It's fobbed off as being a 'cultural' issue. That, coupled with workers that can't complain to their managers, managers who can't complain to their directors, means kids suffer. They suffer because nobody else is speaking for them.

I really believe that this is all about parenting. Children with a solid bond with their parents don't do this kind of thing. Parents who really care about their children don't let them out looting.

Yes, OK parents who really care about their children don't let them out looting - but I grew up with a parent who couldn't have cared less where I was as long as I didn't interrupt her drinking. STILL doesn't mean that I would go and rob JD sports or whatever. A CRAPPY CHILDHOOD DOES NOT MEAN YOU HAVE TO BEHAVE LIKE LAWLESS SCUM.

What I mean is that making excuses that 'they don't know any better' isn't going to help anybody to take responsibility for their own actions. It's not their parents out looting - it's THEM. THEY are making that choice. And they do know better, as they can see that law-abiding citizens don't go out robbing, yet they still choose to. What happened to PERSONAL responsibility. It's no-one else's fault but their own.

Very good article on the BBC Heads challenge parents over riot youth

'He also says that there need to be questions raised about the messages sent to young people by a consumerist culture which gives the impression that they can become "rich and famous without doing any work".

"The majority of young people have a very clear sense of right and wrong," he says. But if there is no sense of this passed on to young people - "you only have to read Lord of the Flies".'

link

Not having a job doesn't excuse or explain the current behaviour. If they were poor & destitute then you'd imagine they'd be robbing Tesco's for bread. But no, they are robbing electrical stores & sportswear shops.

How many of these youths would be prepared to put in a hard days graft in a factory? Or would they feel its beneath them? I suspect the latter.

Buck-passing, excuse-making, blame-dodging. Anything but accepting that there's a group in society who doesn't give a shit, who are bringing their kids up to not give a shit who know that they're barely touchable - who want to, what's the quote, "show the rich people that we can do what we want and get what we want."

Yeah there are reasons the initial bit kicked off - but the copy-catting - is just a show of power from a group that generally bubbles away and people don't dare admit exists.

Let's face it - they're rocking flat screen tellys today, highly unlikely to end up in jail... we're facing taxes and insurance being whacked up to fix the damage... why are we on the side we're on again?

They made the choice to head out night after night - no one forced them to do it.

Runnerhasbeen's post was interesting. Guess this is a mix. Folk looking for a freebie and some excitement but I do think for many of them this is a way of saying 'fuck you!' - 'you all think we are scum anyway and we'll never have what you lot have so fuck you!' Other people get caught up in the moment and get involved, can be a bit infectious.

Most of us are just glad we don't have to live amongst them - problem is we do just want to herd them all together and keep them as far away as possible.

I honestly don't know what you do about folk at the bottom of the pile - is it possible to change things or will we just build more ghettos eventually and lock them in.

Still, at least we have a London Mayor and Prime Minister with real insight into why young men enjoy destroying other people's property, being members of the Bullingdon club.

I blame their sense of entitlement.

MrsT, I think the suspect the City and Canary Wharf weren't hit was simply because the poverty stricken areas that surround them are predominantly Muslim. It's Ramadam at the moment and rioting and looting don't go hand in hand with fasting and praying.

That's not wholly tongue in cheek, btw. In the last few days I've read that people who destroy others' property are scum, they have no morality, their parents are useless, they've never learnt right from wrong, they should be made homeless, their children should be taken away, it's fine to shoot them, etc etc.

Does this apply to the Bullingdon club as well?

I'm furious with the rioters and looters, but I'm pretty cross with the highly privileged buggers who do it too.

I wouldn't join the Bullingdon Club but I perceive just the slightest difference between hiring a room at a country restaurant, smashing your plates and a couple of bottles then writing a cheque and someone burning down 30 apartments and a carpet store or stealing trainers from Foot Locker. Maybe.

emptyshell - quoting a couple of drunk (as they were) teenage girls caught up in the 'thrill' of a mob isn't really represetnative of the phenomenon.

There isn't really one 'type' of protester or protester-cum-looter, or just looter, is there?

Slug, I am not sure I understand your post. And, quite frankly, I'm not sure I want to.

The difference I can see is scale (many more people = much more damage), not in the personal responsibility of the perpetrators.

I don't personally understand the "smashing up other people's belongings and lives is fun". But hey, at least someone out there does...

slug - would you care to expand on what you mean? without that it reads pretty awfully.

Mrs T, it was about your comment that "It's quite telling that the City of London/financial centre has not been hit."

I used to teach around there. i know the local population well. If you want to look for disaffected youth, these are the most deprived areas of the country where, quite literally, you can be on the wrong side of the tracks. Canary Wharf in particular is surrounded by housing estates with some of the country's poorest, disaffected youth and has a massive gang problem. Just the sort you would expect to be out rioting and lifting designer trainers.

At any other time of the year that is. However, it is currently Ramadam, the only time of the year where I could lock my bicycle outside of work without fear of it being nicked. I'm merely suggesting that the reason the finnancial centre wasn't hit was the local youth had something else on their minds at the moment.

Er, well if you know the locality well (I lived in Hackney/Bethnel Green for many years until recently), you'll know that people of all races and religions live there. There are as many poor white/black Christians as there are Bangladeshi origin Muslims in the area. My point was that this looting has no basis (or no longer has any basis) in political protest, hence legitimate political targets (City institutions that brought the economy to its knees) are not being attacked. The people rioting in Mare Street didn't need to go far to get to Bishopsgate. I'm not sure what to make of your comments about Ramadan, other than to draw some fairly distasteful conclusions about you.

And it's Ms T. You make me sound like Margaret Thatcher, a grave insult for a miner's daughter.

Ms T - you speak bucket loads of sense. As does Loudlass

I'd actually fucking hang the lot of them to be honest. Stick the bleeding heart liberal shite cos that empathy and understanding ain't bloody worked has it.

Some people don't deserve to live here.

But no - let's just continue to prop up the feral scum of society and screw the decent people who have to mop up the mess - can't ever tell people their actions are unjustifiable can we?

Out of interest, what do people think is a good punishment for these people? Because they plainly feel that nothing will happen to them so it's ok to do it. So if you were the decision makers, what punishment would you dole out?

Joshandjamie- Repaying the damage done. Take the cost of the damage and the number of people proved to be involved. Split the cost between them. If they don't have assets to cover it, take 20% of the wages/benefits until paid back, if ever.

Oh and publish their names and photos.

Housing minsters been on, sounds like they may be going to cancel tenancys on social housing. They are going to announce what they are doing tommorrow