"Looting 'fuelled by social exclusion'", "Blackberry messenger used to co-ordinate trouble"

[schomberg]

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/08/looting-fuelled-by-social-exclusion?intcmp=239

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/08/london-riots-third-night-live?intcmp=239

The concept of a riot fuelled by poverty and exclusion being organised on Blackberries is doing my head in. Is this unreasonable?

Deesus - am just hearing that the gvt are not wishing to call these behaviurs a riot as it means the companies will have to pay out on insurance. If this is the case it's pretty dispicable, and merely confirms the feeling that large business is to be protected at the expense of the individual.

I see what you are saying, RunnerHasbeen. However, there is sometimes no clear line between explanation and excuse. Blaming everything on upbringing (social and familial) alone does a disservice to every person who has lived through a blighted childhood and who actually decides to walk the line and live a decent life - and I reckon that's the vast majority of such people (and I'm counting myself in there). There are (or should be) some universal standards/moralities. We are all human beings, and I'd apply the same condemnation to a rich man destroying a poor man's livelihood through irresponsible investments as I do to a poor one doing the same to his neighbour's corner shop by looting it. In both cases, we should be able to step out of ourselves and realise what we are doing is wrong. Why do some people see "victim" and others "opportunity to exploit for my own gain"?

I was interested in the analogy being drawn with football hooligans, many of whom were not disaffected, poverty stricken young men, but middle class, middle aged professionals out for cheap thrills. Time will tell how many of those arrested don't turn out to be "son of struggling single mum from sink estate in Tottenham who left school with no qualifications", but are actually, "computer engineer from reasonably affluent neighbourhood out for a bit of gangsta roll play fantasy".

Chasingthedevils - "But his Tory mob are incapable of providing jobs for young men; which will help to solve the problem". Do you actually have a grasp of recent British history? Because blaming the Tories for a lack of jobs after a mere 14 months in office is a little rich. Perhaps you should question the policies of the previous govt - the 'rewards' of which we are all still reaping.

This country may be economically depressed right now, but we still have amazing opportunities for all and free education & healthcare. Nobody is starving to death, there is access for all to a host of life improving programmes. I really think that finding excuses or reasons for what is happening is missing the point that these people don't give a shit about civilised society, don't want to be part of or contribute to civilised society and blindly hate anything that represents civilised society. That includes all of us bleating and wringing our hands. I have no idea what the answer is, but blaming cuts or the nasty party or police brutality or lack of opportunity is bloody ridiculous. Blame the fucking parents of these people and blame the fuckers who are throwing the bricks and looting the shops.

pan Whether the govt or police actually call something a riot the insurance policies will still pay out. The riot act was actually repealed (back in the 70's i think). It was under this act that the 'riot act' needed to be read. However even then this was to do with insurance claiming back money they had paid out in claims. If something was declared a riot they had 7 days to put in their own claim against the police.

If a riot or any civil unrest has occurs today and a commercial policy covers that peril then the policy will pay out!

PS I work as a commercial underwriter!

or you can get a budgeting loan with 0% interest and buy a blackberry. I think its awful and nothing to do with social class. I think its more about the youth of today. The student riots were not committed due to poverty and nor are these.

I got brought up in 'poverty' in the 80's and we didnt riot, we wouldnt have dared

So these people are just bad 'uns.

We shouldn't bother to ask why. They are and always were rotten. All those kids.

It's horrendous but frankly it's everyday life for some people writ large. Mugging, shooting, criminal damage. These kids have grown up in a culture and now they are showing their power.

It's only when they travel tomplaces like Bromley that people take notice. And Bromley has always been a bit rough at night.

thanks deesus.

No probs pan! Just don't get me started on 'acts of god'....

so what's this 'act of god' malarkey then?

The thing is though most of these kids have been brought up when there was free access to groups and numerous centres set up to help the young off the streets. Everything is handed to people on a plate. The more the government give the more they expect. They have been brought up with modern technology, glam footballers and rappers lifestyles.

By the way i am saying this whilst living on a council estate and claimingg benefits.

Jesus. Even £15 a month is too much for me. Can't see a time when we could afford a blackberry either.

Can't stop and discuss this now though. Got me some looting to do.

msannthroppy, I doubt these looters are ever going to hit the City since there are no footlockers, electrical stores or shops selling oversized, underpant exposing jeans. I doubt they have much want for a smart suit and some sensible brogues.

Which proves your point obviously about their lack of political agenda.

And if it was down to police oppression etc, surely the police stations would have been targetted?

Unfortunatly it's the use of media fueling the riots as well as informing rioters where police will be.

Earlier today FB and Twitter were annoucing riots in S'ton and P'mouth because the radio had announced that the majority of Hants police would be going to London tonight. We have now been informed they are not happening it was just a FB/ twitter discussion.

I mean really - how can anyone say if they will or won't.

Have any rioters/ looters given a reason for their actions? Or is it all still speculation? I love the conspricy theories!

Its just that the media have finally realised teens use Blackberry Messenger. Big deal. The majority of teens have mobiles, the Blackberry is the mobile of choice because of BBM. Its encrypted and free to use. Blackberry realised this and deliberately brought out a couple of cheaper models to make them even more attractive.

Teens are not texting on those Blackberrys, its BBM. It might seem odd to us adults but the phones are seen as essential piece of teen kit.

My Dad has a Blackberry on a very cheap contract. He was so pleased with himself for being 'in'.

Whats BBM?

i said this yesterday, but are you really telling me that you don't think poor people can have mobile phones.

what about the obligatory 50" tv? i mean its practically defining of the poor is a huge telly is it not.

you can't have it all ways - you can't argue this and then argue 'why do people on benefits always have huge tellies!'

its not an apology for the mindless thuggery - in fact i m not even discussing that point at all

Lol this is my exact fb status ATM!

You can only buy flat screen tv's now so why wouldnt poorer people have them? If their tv breaks they cant get anything else

I've just posted this on another thread - but it does seem relevant to this discussion.

The BBC are reporting today that:

"32 people have appeared in court charged with offences such as burglary and criminal damage during the previous riots.

Among them were a graphic designer, college students, a youth worker, a university graduate and a man signed up to join the army. Some gave non-London addresses. Eighteen were remanded in custody."

I think this is nothing to do with poverty, cuts or anything else. I teach socially deprived teenagers. On the whole they are funny, thoughtful, interesting individuals. But I can bet they are all surging around their little home town (one of those where Londoners were moved to in the 60s, large estates) absolutely desperate to join in and maybe trying some copycat stuff themselves. If you speak to them when they are calm they know it is wrong, but they behave that way anyway- often fuelled by alcohol and drugs. The only thing that will stop it is a shock. In my opinion, the police need to deliver that shock.

OK, I'm on benefits right now looking for non existant work that pays enough to cover 30% of my extortionate childcare and still leave enough to pay my bills and feed the dc. I have a mobile phone. Because all the landline companies want to charge me a £300 deposit to install one as I'm not in employment...not a blackberry buta cheap LG bought with my orange phone fund when my last LG died after 4 yrs. I've looked into it, and I would actually spend LESS on a blackberry contract than I would on my PAYG phone, as I have to make all calls from it, even 0845 numbers, as there's no bloody payphones anymore. I pass the 'credit check', and I have fucking abysmal bad credit rating due to my Ex-H leaving me with debts I'm still paying off 8 years later.

Doesn't mean I think that these looters aren't reprehensible thugs, because they are. Brought up with no boundaries, and no desire to work. I was a teen mum (16yo), have 4 dc by 3 different fathers, I'm not with any of them so fucking flame me, I have a disability (uncontrolled epilepsy, if anyone's interested), one of my dc is only 6 months old - and I'm looking for work. In the 9 weeks since my Ex-P left, I've applied for 4 jobs. And am still looking and still applying.

It's just criminality and thuggery for the sake of it. I was dragged up in Woolwich as a young child, by a teen mother that should never have had dc, I've been in FC, I've had my father who was my sole carer at the time commit suicide, and a whole host of other 'deprivation indicators' through my childhood, yet it wouldn't make ME behave they way these vandals and arsonists and thieves are. Because that is what they are. Nothing more, nothing less.

Custardo, right about the telly. My SisIL (never earned, her son never earned, husband never earned, has got one working daughter though), borrowed money off my pensioned MIL for her 50" telly.
She's poor on many levels. She won't live long either cos she's morbidly obese but gets to travel free across the country to get to nutritionist appointments.

Don't get me started...

Loudlass, good for you - I think you speak for most people regardless of background. I totally agree about low pay, when rent costs £1000 a month (av. 1 bed flat in London), you need to earn at least £25,000 per household (without kids). Most starting jobs are around £15K.

Most people rich or poor, wouldn't go round looting, but young disenfranchised men who can be 'heroes just for one day', and be on utube, obviously will.