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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that the riots in Tottenham are not in respect of

134 replies

M0naLisa · 07/08/2011 23:51

the bloke shot?

They are acting if not worse than the reason this guy was killed in the first place.

The police must have had their reasoning for shooting him dead. He was known to the police, they had been following him. And on his body there was a fire arm on him. Hmm so the rioters saying 'were doing this out of respect'

No your not your doing it to complete and utter arseholes. If he wouldnt have been shot by police he could have gone on to shoot someone else.

Think the police need to step down now and let the army take over, hose them down!! Like they do in Ireland.

OP posts:
Pendeen · 08/08/2011 11:51

one youth worker talked about the 'collective memory' from the eighties and stories of police oppression of black men being handed down to the new generation"

Which of course excuses the scenes of looters smashing open shops and stealing the contents? The shopkeepers business' ruined? The injuries?

bubblesincoffee · 08/08/2011 11:54

I've seen it said on here 'How else are they supposed to get their point across?'

So what exactly is their point? I'm genuinely asking because I really can't see it.

squeakytoy · 08/08/2011 11:55

I am not saying that BMS, I am saying he was certainly no innocent, and for people to to try and paint his life as a doting father and pillar of society is rather inaccurate. He was a gang member.

I have a good friend in Tottenham, she has spent the last couple of days holed up in her flat with her young daughter, she fears for her daughters future. She doesnt want to live in a lawless society, or an area where the gangs are in control.

ProfessionallyOffendedGoblin · 08/08/2011 12:00

'Which of course excuses the scenes of looters smashing open shops and stealing the contents? The shopkeepers business' ruined? The injuries?'

This is the fourth time there have been serious riots in Brixton.
That's what happened then, and it's what's happening now. Looting, destruction and blame on both sides. So the legacy is continued.

MrsMustardSeed · 08/08/2011 12:01

Bubbles - I am not saying that being angry with the police excuses the violence. I live in Brixton. I am gutted at what has happened. I can't go out and look at the high street because I feel like I will break down in tears. I have posted on the in the news thread if you want to know my opinions.

Your attitude about the police and the black community though is very typical of white people who do not understand what it is like to suffer racism. Yes, being stopped doesn't doesn't bother you. For you, it's not part of a bigger picture where you suffer indiginity and discrimination just about every day of your life. It's not a constant fucking put down, you're not likely to internalise it. You don't get it. Sorry.

That's it for me on this subject because this thread isn't about the wider topic of racism. I'm sure you're going to be outraged and say you do get it, how dare I accuse you of not understanding... it's boring, sorry, but it's what most white, middle-class people say when you try to engage them on the topic.

Now, I'm off to meet up with friends who have younger children and see if they're OK, see if I can do anything since they probably haven't had any sleep.

bubblesincoffee · 08/08/2011 12:11

I'm not going to say that I do get it. I haven't lived in an area of deprivation since I was a small child, I know that it is impossible for me to completely understand. That's why I asked above what point are these people trying to make.

Your assumption that I am white and middle class is as wrong as any police officer assuming that a young black male must be a criminal. I'm mixed race btw.

I hope you and your friends are ok.

marriedinwhite · 08/08/2011 12:15

So what things might stop racism then MrsMustardSeed? The establishment has done a huge amount against a legislative and regulatory framework and most white people I encounter are very very inclusive. I also encounter a great many black youths, male and female, and have a number of black work colleagues. I see little or no racism in my everyday working life and I see massive effort made to be inclusive. Regrettably I also see two generations of people who have huge chips on their shoulders, who perceive racism in every innocent nuance, who think it is OK to be late, OK to be rude, OK to claim benefits, OK to use cannabis, OK for their children to raise a hand to a teacher, OK to register and leave class just to collect EMA, OK to be openly homophobic, OK to call white people from the same estates "white trailer trash". Is it all al one way street? How much more opportunity can possibly be given if is never to be accepted.

Pendeen · 08/08/2011 12:18

I don't acept the "blame on both sides" argument at all. Neither. I imagine, would a shopkeeper contemplating the smoking ruins of his business.

The looters had a choice, and chose to become criminals. They are simply thugs and should be treated as such.

PaigeTurner · 08/08/2011 14:23

Squeakytoy, I think you're referring to my earlier comment about him being the 'peacemaker' - which was a quote from one of the residents who said he was one of the few people on the estate who could stop trouble getting out of hand. I didn't say he was a 'pillar of the community'.

In any case no one deserves to be shot in the face in retribution for anything.

Ryoko · 08/08/2011 17:38

The rioters don't care what the family think or want, the people are angry due to many reasons, the government cuts, the poor getting poorer while the rich get richer, the police seeming to be above the law and victimising the poor while turning a blind eye to the actions of the rich.

The riots are not in this mans name, his death was simply the spark that caused the pent up rage to manifest.

And I don't mind saying I don't trust the police, they have never given me any cause to trust them at all, they raided my family home on the phone call of a family enemy and took all our computers, TVs etc away for checking and didn't bring them back, they just told us we had x amount of time to collect them from the storehouse outside of London otherwise they would go to auction, that was a pain in the arse to try and get transport just to get our stuff back, we don't all have cars and the cash to spare for fuel to get our belongings back, they stop and search my boyfriend simply because they don't like the look of him, he's never done anything illegal in his life, and in the area I live in 2 people have been shot dead in the past 5 years, both killed by police, both where unarmed and unlawfully killed and in both cases no one was held to account.

What have the police done to earn my trust? when I got attacked by a drunk man in the street while standing at a bus stop directly across the road from the police station at 8pm did any of them come out and help? no of course they didn't, respect needs to be earned they need to do something other then alienate the residents.

Police only treat people with respect and like to be seen patrolling in the nice areas, they treat us poor in the inner city like scum when you see them that is, which is hardly ever. and if you treat someone like shit they will act accordingly, it's not rocket science.

TheLadyEvenstar · 08/08/2011 18:13

I am sitting in my living room watching armed response units fly up and down the old kent road.

So far I know Phone4U has been targeted in Rye Lane,
Asda on Old Knet road
Tesco on OKR

Newcross industrial estate is also on the list as well as Lewisham Town Centre.

The word is among the locals that the smaller shops here are next to be targetted. Sad

Nancy66 · 08/08/2011 18:29

I had to laugh when I saw looters targetting CARPETRIGHT - I mean, FGS, what are they going to come away with? A few sample books of patterned shag-pile?

LadyThumb · 08/08/2011 18:41

Instead of rioting, why don't they all say........I tell you what, I won't riot, I will instead go to night school, get an education and get a good job?

WE do not have everything we could possibly want, yet my son would never riot and loot, and nor would I.

They make me absolutely sick, these people!

squeakytoy · 08/08/2011 18:42

My husband has just left a job in Croydon and said it is chaos there and starting to kick off.

FabbyChic · 08/08/2011 18:43

The guy had a gun, what do you do when faced with an armed man and you have no idea what he is going to do with it, you shoot him.

Those who rioted did so to loot and cause carnage, it was worse than the Orange Day shite in Belfast.

Scum that is what they are nothing more nothing less. Just scum.

crazynanna · 08/08/2011 18:45

That did make me think,the IPCC on site immediatly at the scene of the shooting.

I don't think I have ever seen or heard that happening before. Major cock up?

Mitmoo · 08/08/2011 18:47

Several cars have been set alight in Lewisham, this is horrific.

crazynanna · 08/08/2011 18:47

immediately oh the shame Blush...and it was my big,bolded word ffs

spiderpig8 · 08/08/2011 19:12

Ryoko-that's a very insightful post.Thank you.You said what I wanted to say. I am white probably middle class and live in rural idyll, but I feel frustrated and desperate about how the establishment is treating the poor and vulnerable

SlackSally · 08/08/2011 19:14

No one actually knows if he had a gun, Fabby. You have absolutely zero evidence of that so far.

As others have said, why were the IPCC involved so quickly if there wasn't a fuck up?

If he had been waving a gun around, I doubt they'd have got involved, or certainly got involved so quickly, because most people would say that shooting him would be justified in those circumstances.

This has major fuck-up written all over it.

Birdsgottafly · 08/08/2011 19:18

It has just been found that the bullet that hit the policeman was fired from a police weapon, the gun found at the scene couldn't have fired it. The police took 36 hours to inform the family. A family liason officer wasn't assigned, other services for the mans DC's weren't engaged. There are answers needed, the policeman could have died, shot by another policeman.

The riots have taken on a life of its own, there is a shocking lack of police presence, now.

EdithWeston · 08/08/2011 19:26

IPCC are immediately and automatically called in whenever the police open fire. There's absolutely nothing to be read into that routine procedure.

The ballistics report will be released tomorrow - comments about the nature of the shooting remain premature/rumour until then.

I don't think there is any doubt that there was a non-police weapon in the minicab. We have yet to have any account of its precise whereabouts, or if it were pointed at anyone.

Has there been any word about whether Duggan was the target of the Op Trident operation? Or could it have been the cabbie? If it was Duggan they were trying to arrest, then presumably the cabbie will be a very important eye witness?

Salmotrutta · 08/08/2011 19:29

It was my understanding that the IPCC is always immediately involved in any shooting incident. Unless someone knows different?
When armed officers shoot anyone it's standard procedure for it to be investigated. That's been the case for many years as far as I know.
I think I'll wait until more information about the shooting comes to light before I hold an opinion on it.
I can, however, hold an opinion on the rioters. They are criminals who have seized an opportunity to carry out arson, theft and assault. They have no idea how lucky they are not to be living in some countries where they would have been shot at for just being there.

crazynanna · 08/08/2011 19:29

EW, one reporter did say that it was very unusual for the IPCC to turn up at a scene...they usually come in afer on the case (not a legal person so don't know)

Well,I am a legal person...but you get my drift Smile

Salmotrutta · 08/08/2011 19:30

X-Post Edith!!