to think that the riots in Tottenham are not in respect of

[M0naLisa]

the bloke shot?

They are acting if not worse than the reason this guy was killed in the first place.

The police must have had their reasoning for shooting him dead. He was known to the police, they had been following him. And on his body there was a fire arm on him. so the rioters saying 'were doing this out of respect'

No your not your doing it to complete and utter arseholes. If he wouldnt have been shot by police he could have gone on to shoot someone else.

Think the police need to step down now and let the army take over, hose them down!! Like they do in Ireland.

The gang culture in certain parts of London is totally out of hand and need to be dealt with. It has more to do with the supply of illegal drugs than with disenfranchisement and it is the suppliers and dealers who are holding these areas to ransom and creating dysfunctional environments that breeds the gang cultures. The gangs are not in fear of authority they are in fear of the reactions of those who want them to react against authority. Often the community members know who shoots and kills but are too scared to tell the truth - not scared of the police but scared of those who run the gangs and run the activities behind the gangs.

Most of these young people are vulnerable and have been failed by many many agencies and by their parents, often their fathers, because in these communities fathers are not present to provide materially or to provide emotional supports and to be active role models and this situation has been perpetuated now since the 1960's and has become worse and worse over time.

I live in London cheek by jowl with these communities. I have only ever found the police in London to be helpful, respectful, sensible people, many of whom wish to work on behalf of these communities rather than against them.

I don't think that saying the police force is made of of fallible human beings is slating the police force. I think that accepting everything they do without question is wrong. Any organisation with the powers they have, has to be subject to critisism and censure. Everytime there is an inquiry into police actions I give a cheer - it proves we live in a decent society.

it IS a race issue though - I think it's so naive and unhelpful to say that it's not.

knife crime, gang crime, gun crime still mostly affects and occurs in the black community. Look at all the pictures of victims of stabbings/shootings and they're nearly all black male youths.

Well put, marriedinwhite.

My 2p

The whole Duggan issue reminds me of Jean Charles De Menezes. At the time I expressed views elsewhere about how it smacked of itchy trigger fingers and for want of a better expression 'overkill'. I was flamed royally with comments along the lines of "you stupid little girl, those are CO19 officers not some PC Plod, they know what they are doing". Uh huh.

Duggan; I think as follows: petty criminal, may have form for a few minor offences. Links to criminal element commonly called 'gangs' an expression I hate. Then fact the IPCC were there in a flash (not ordinary scenario) suggests serious screw up/damage limitation occured/required. Subsequent community anger suggests view not without foundation.

I have worked in the area within the criminal justice system for many years. The police are not respected as 'a fair cop', in fact they are reputed to be rather poorly behaved. Officers from Edmonton for example were reprimanded for water boarding those in drugs raids ffs.

Riots: Peaceful legitimate protest gone sour by the actions of feral disenfranchised people. Agree has been like a tinderbox for a while, resentment bubbling under the surface. No aspirations yet huge sense of entitlement, impotent as little in the way of jobs, meaningful financial assistance to get educated (not saying is impossible, just hard, before the "I only had two pebbles and a stick to play with as a child and lived in a cave being beaten daily and now I am CEO of a FTSE company" brigade start jumping up and down).

That said there are a large number of entitled young people running around smashing up Enfield at the moment, my mentee is watching her college associates from her flat window running riot. These people just want a fight.

The looters: opportunists with no respect for authority.

Was more like my £1.50 in the end

it IS a race issue though - I think it's so naive and unhelpful to say that it's not

Dont care if its race or poverty or whatever at the root, right now its a crime issue and needs to be stopped at that level first.

And cops sometimes make mistakes, but that doesn't justify the violent liberation of hundreds of pairs of trainers and televisions.

Race Issue: Unpalatable truth, racism is alive an well in all facets of society. Just because progress was made does not mean prejudice was eradicated.

Young black males heavily targeted by police. Has become a bit of a self perpetuating cycle, if expectations are limited so are aspirations.

I'm not sure what it is that makes it a race or a poverty issue though Nacy, although I can see your point.

It's insulting to people from ethnic minorities to say that its just a race issue, because there are plenty of people from ethnic minorities that are as far removed from the riots as white upper class consultants living in the home counties.

I actually think focussing on it being a race issue is a dangerous thing, because when you expect this sort of behaviour from a scetion of society, they will start to believe it themselves and will live up to that expectation.

It also removes the personal responsibility from individuals, because it's almost like saying if you are a teenage black male living in an area of deprivation, then we expect you to be pissed off with your life and want to go about chucking petrol bombs at police officers.

To be clear, I think Duggan and riots are separate issues.

There are so many factors at play here

Here in Brixton, a lot of people are greedy opportunists who came out to get a flat screen TV, not make a point. They are a minority who have attacked their own community and made it a less safe place for lots of people.

You are totally naive and living in a bubble though if you do not understand that, yes, this is caused by poverty and racism too. For those who have only ever found the police to be helpful and respectful, I would guess you are not young black men who have a totally different experience.

It probably is a fact that young black males are targeted more than young white males for stop and search etc.

But why is that? Could it be that crime rates were higher amongst young black males in the first place? What are the police supposed to do? Are we really saying they should try and protect the rest of us by not targeting the group that commits the most crime?

I'm sure young white males that are wearing the right status symbol trainers get targeted too. You can't blame that on racism, or the colour of their skin.

I'm not naieve (sp) enough to think that there is no elemant of racim at play here, there probably is and that is unnaccetable.

But the fact remains that if you have nothing to hide, what can the police really do? They can stop and search but if they find nothing, they find nothing and can do nothing. It is an irritation, a minor inconvenience that could be blamed on lawbreaking members of your own community, rather than the police that are just trying to prevent crime.

I would expect more to come
i don't think many MNers (including me) have the first idea of what it is like to live day in day out with grinding poverty and inequality.

And as to those who believe the police behave with integrity, had the police got good reason to storm into [[http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/august/24/newsid_2535000/2535421.stm this sleeping 5 yr olds bedroom and shoot him dead?}}

this sleeping 5 yo shot dead by police

Really, bubbles?

So as you have nothing to hide, you would be perfectly happy to be stopped and searched. stopped while driving, talked to like dirt by a police officer because of your skin colour?

Would you really just shrug it off - well I'm the target demographic, so it's all OK..?!

The is no excuse at all for the looting/vandalism/violence, it's just a load of mindless thugs taking advantage of one situation (the shooting) to do what they want to do.

Sounds like the riots were planned, and that the main group were driving from one area to the next, knowing full well the police would be stretched.

Duggan has got sweet fuck all to do with it.

These are just thieves and vandals.

They are trying to say anything, or make a point, they are just stealing out of greed and destroying others property for the sheer hell of it.

What on earth point is someone making by setting fire to civilians cars? Or to shops?

Jeeez

This sort of opinion :

"Even if this guy didn't shoot, it's clear he's a criminal, it's clear he owns a gun, he took a risk just by being that sort of a person"

just terrifies me. Seriously.

I struggle to comprehend that there are people out there who actually think it is OK if your loved one is shot in the face because he was a bad person.

As for the police don't make mistakes/shouldn't be held accountable comments I find it chilling.

Spider, that story is a tragedy that happened 26 years ago and was instrumental in decisions about whether to arm ordinary officers.

I think it's mostly people taking an opportunity and going crazy with it. People who have no respect and a huge sense of entitlement.

It's just lawlessness, with an attempt at disguising it as some sort of retribution to justify it. Most of them just want new trainers.

I'd like to bet that most of the idiots rioting don't even know the name of the guy shot.

They should have brought in the army.

The police can and do make mistakes but they are extremely rare. The police are also very valuable as an organised and regulated body to fight crime and to help to keep the majority of people safe. They deal with people most of us would not like to meet. Also, most people who have been shot by mistake have been associated with or directly involved with very high risk activities and such activities have consequences, sometimes very serious consequences for many other people and occasionally fatal consequences for those involved. Does anyone know how many police officers have died in the course of their duties, ie protecting communities, compared to the number of civilians accidentally killed by the police.

Mrs Mustard Seed, people get stopped while driving all the time in routine police operations. I know I've been stopped when the police decide to set up cameras and stuff on nearby main roads more than once or twice. They look at when your tax is going to run out, might ask where you are going and then that's it.

It's not a big deal for me because I have nothing to hide.

A reason to be irritated yes. A reason to hate the police force, no.

going back to Ryokos first post on page 1,

but word on the street is the man was not armed at the time, he kept his gun in his car and wasn't anywhere near it

So why was he keeping a gun in his car then? Innocent men just going about their daily lives do not carry guns in this country.

"Being disenfranchised solely because of poverty? No. Joining gangs and engaging in criminal activities remain a matter for personal conscience and it would be insulting to the poor to say that there was any sort of inevitable link."

Absolutely. People who justify violence like this are part of the problem. ITs totally patronising for a start to those who are poor (yes, the poor are always with us, I am one of them) who do reject criminality and violence as a lifestyle.

And I don't live in the shires, I live in inner city London, so I am not living in Cloud Cuckoo.

Well in that case squeaky toy, he deserved to be shot!!!!

MIW, sounds like you are saying deaths are collateral damage, or am I misreading?

Police do a difficult and challenging job. Some are however on a power trip with a holier than thou attitude that pisses people off.

Does this justify riots? No. Is it prompt for discussion/improvement? Should be.