To have said this to FIL?

[InsertFlameHere]

Probably, yes. But please read what happened and put yourself in my position. (Have namechanged as this is enough to out me, and I'm never sure if my SIL in on MN!) Sorry, it's a bloody essay.

Just spent a week with PIL while DH was staying for a few nights at a work event nearby. I had both DSs with me - DS1 is 3, DS2 is 7 mo. We stay up with PIL a few times a year, and it's nice for them to be able to host their grandsons rather than slog down to us, a long, expensive drive for them. I never really enjoy my stays up there - it's very much on their territory and all the predictable mother/MIL stresses tend to come out. I also have problems with my FIL - he loves winding me up and I'm generally rubbish at resisting and letting it flow over me (to give an idea, his general stance is to channel the DM, though I don't think he reads it: favourite rants include Foreign Call Centres, Immigrant Labour, Unneccessary Laws Regarding Driving, and EU Interference. ). He always seems to target me with some of his ranting when I'm there (or indeed, when he's down here), but I'm entirely prepared to acknowledge that I'm now paranoid about him winding me up and probably far too defensive. Anyway.

All week long FIL had been chuntering away about 'stupid car-seat laws' because we obviously had to fit car seats into their 4x4 from our own car. He was moaning about how these silly laws meant that if you chose to have more than two children, you'd have to buy a more expensive car because you couldn't fit three childseats in the backs of most cars. I think I may have pointed out that the laws were there as a result of research and crash-testing, and that if you wanted three children then you'd factor that larger car into your choice. Anyway, it was obviously his Rant du Jour.

One day towards the end of the week, we set off for a day trip, me in the back of their 4x4, just about squeezed between the two seats and strapped in safely. On the way, the baby started screaming. He hates car travel and if he's not asleep, he's generally pissed off. I did my best to distract him and it worked for a while (he's not used to me in the back!) but eventually he was just inconsolable. He wasn't in pain, he had recently had a feed and was just pissed off. The crying got to my PIL, understandably.

My FIL started chuntering about how absurd it was, these 'new' laws regarding child restraints, because as any parent knew, sometimes babies just need to be picked up and consoled, and it was ridiculous that it was 'now illegal' for me to pick up DS2 and give him a cuddle. In a moving car. (we were by then on a motorway, doing probably 70 mph +)

I did try to let this flow over me and if I'd just said nothing and biten my tongue at that point, I think he'd have dried up. But I couldn't let that pass, because basically he was saying I should be picking up my baby in a fast-moving car, on a motorway. He kept on saying how these laws were made by people who didn't understand what they were legislating about, who didn't have the practical expertise or life experience to understand the issues. (He comes out with this number ALL the time.)

I pointed out, relatively calmly, that the laws were evidence-based and that people had studied at length exactly what happens to small children who are floating around, unrestrained, in the event of a car accident, and that personally, I was happy to comply sensibly and to cope with DS2 being unhappy for a while because he was strapped in. I then said that surely only an idiot would consider taking a small baby out of its restraints in a fast-moving car.

He exploded at me, basically. 'No, YOU'RE the idiot!' Apparently, I was being absurd because the risks were very small and I could comfort my child quickly if I picked him out of his seat. When I said that DH and I have occasionally pulled over if one of our boys is really upset or we're concerned about them, he said 'well, you can't do that on a motorway! It'd be much more dangerous to sit on a hard shoulder' - which is true, of course, it IS dangerous and I don't think we've ever done that. What I mean is that we sometimes pull into a service station or even come off the motorway at a junction to tend to the boys. He said this was a stupid thing to do (?) and that some motorways didn't even have services... He went on and on. I should have left it, and at one point, as we were both shouting by then (fucking stupid of both of us, we were in a car on the motorway, I know it was stupid and I was BU to continue arguing) I said 'Look, I'm not arguing this any more, it's pointless. I don't want to discuss this any more' but he rode straight over that. Some other things he came out with:

-HE had been driving for over 50 years and therefore knew what he was talking about, I had only been driving 4 years (correction, I've been driving for 5, but FFS, what has that to do with it??) so I didn't know what I was talking about.
-HE had brought up 2 children and therefore was in a position to say all this, and I in comparison, didn't know Jack. (I do have 2 children. I'm not sure why the fact that they're not yet fully grown really excludes me from having an opinion on car-seat safety.)
-When I said that he was the only person I had ever met who held this opinion, that it was OK to take a baby or small child out of their restraints in a fast car to comfort them, he said he didn't care and didn't believe me. I several times asked him to stop shouting at me and take it up with his son, who shared my views and thought that seat restraints were sort of important, but he said he didn't care about his son's views, he was talking to ME and I was the Idiot, etc.

I finally just said, without thinking about the implications -
'What you're saying to me, the way you feel about seat-belts and car-seats, makes me think that in fact, you're not a suitable person to look after my children'.

It did sort of bring him up short (for a few seconds) and then he offered to put me off at the next junction, since I was so keen on pulling off the motorway, and let me find my own way home. I suggested that if he do that, he also leave my two sons with me, because I wasn't happy with him driving them without me there. He back-tracked.

Ok, so now I've basically said I think he's unfit to be in charge of DSs in certain circumstances. I have no doubts that both PIL are devoted to their grandchildren and love them very much. They often have taken DS1 off in their car, either down here or staying up there, either to give me a break or to give DS1 a treat. Now I'm wondering exactly how careful they are with him in the car. Actually, I don't think they'd be as stupid as my FIL was arguing, but it's now opened up a whole area of doubt and I feel uncomfortable about them driving him around. I especially don't want my FIL driving the baby around, especially if MIL were sat in the back (she often does with DS1, so she can talk to him). Was I being unreasonable? Heat of the moment, and all that. I should point out that though this argument was three days ago now, I still feel shell-shocked and very upset, not just because of the implications, but because FIL was throwing these things up to try and undermine me - I haven't been a parent long enough, and haven't been driving long enough, to know what I'm talking about, apparently.

(Incidentally, at some point during this exchange, DS2 calmed down and started chewing my hairbrush happily. When he started up again while we were crawling about looking for a parking space, in desperation I managed to contort myself over him, still strapped in, and stuck a boob in his face. I'm not sure I'd have done this at 80 mph on the motorway, but I was still strapped in. Clearly not something I could do in our own car, since it won't accommodate my generous bum between the car seats.)

Your FIL sounds like a complete twat and I wouldn't want to leave my DC with him if I were you. I wouldn't even leave them with your PIL without switching your car seats over as you now can't assume that he won't take them in the car anyway. You did call him an idiot first so maybe an apology (for that and only that) would be in order. I would be tempted to do one of those apologies that is worded such that it really isn't an apology at all. "I'm sorry that you found me calling you an idiot for suggesting that I endanger my son's life upsetting". So you haven't said that you are sorry that you called him an idiot. But I would concede that this is probably not a good idea and is more inflamatory than useful.

personally, i would not trust him to strap in my children properly either and would not let him transport the children unsupervised by a parent.

this man may says he loves your children , but he is not being loving. a loving grandparent would put the safety of his grandchildren first over inconvenience. a loving granparent would not goad the childrens mother. a loving grandparent would respect parenting choices (at least once explained even if they were not sure at first)

oh and only an idiot would think it is ok to take a child out of the car seat, so if the cap fits....

Agree re. needing to go 'la la la' or 'oh, really?' in uninterested tone the next time he goes off on one. This is, in fact, my normal tone (if I'm being very very careful!) when he rants these days, because I really have been trying to rein it in with him. No point in throwing fuel on his fire. It was just that this particular statement was so inflammatory and had such important implications that I couldn't let it pass. And though my initial response wasn't shouted and was pretty reasonable (nb. I did NOT call him an idiot, I said surely only an idiot (i.e. me) would pick the baby out of the seat) he responded by shouting and getting very het up, so it escalated immediately. I think I need to deal with my own reactions to him and maybe should consider getting a discreet tattoo on my wrist or something: Do NOT rise to it.

Banana, sorry, I'm not being pigheaded. I don't think it was unreasonable for me to challenge him on what he thought were, or should be, optional car-seat laws. And I can't honestly remember who had the last word. I was far too miserable at the arguing and atmosphere to notice. For all I care, it was him and he's welcome to it. I just wanted him to know where I stand.

Anyway, thanks for the (mostly) helpful responses. I've talked to DH about it and because I don't want to leave this festering (and it would make me feel a lot better in myself!) I've asked him to ring his mum later on and just say 'Insert wanted to say she was sorry that things got a bit out of hand in the car the other day, but she was just speaking out of concern for the boys. We're sure FIL would never put them at risk.' Of course, given their addiction to using speakerphone, FIL will be listening in, so MIL won't actually have to pass it on!

I don't let my MIL or FIL look after my DS without my DH there. She doesn't wear a seatbelt, they both drink and drive and have done so with their own daughter in the car. The last straw was when they put my son in their car that hadn't been MOT'd for the past 6 weeks because they thought it wouldn't pass. They then drove on the motorway. They told me about the MOT bit after the event exact words 'I was worried about picking DH Nan and Grandad up as the car isn't MOT as we don't think it will pass but it was okay as I kept to the speed limits most of the time and put my seatbelt on'

I kept my mouth shut and then told my DH they will never ever look after my DS again. I think if you feel they aren't safe then don't let them. My view is I wouldn't let my friends look after him if they were that irresponsible so why should I let MIL/PIL just because they are related. My DS safety is far more important than hurting someone's feelings tbh.

Firstly, there's no ifs or buts- you're entirely correct about the safety issue. My line of work and my BIL's meant that last night, funnily enough, we were discussing 'hideous car crashes we have known' which involved children who weren't restrained dying in this manner. So I think one thing that needs to be made clear is that car seats will always be used by your PILs, whatever the circumstances- this isn't an argument about whether it's appropriate to have chocolate before dinner or some such.

Secondly, what's your view- are you happy for your PILs to look after your children, and think it's beneficial for all parties (you, partner, kids and PILs?) If the answer is 'yes', then the question is how do you make it happen, given the recent incident? I think a lot of what SBNH says is correct, but then the issue is how to communicate it to them. I think a letter would be a bit weird, and I think you've said this yourself, but then it sounds like speak to your FIL would just get things going again. Share your eyeroll on bloody speaker phones too...

So yes, send a message through your DH/MIL, and then the next step I'd say is to ensure the next few times you go, you go as a family unit. Hopefully this will allow things to be smoothed over, will prevent your FIL being a knob towards you, and may perhaps give you a chance to have a quick one to one with your MIL.

Basically, your FIL sounds like a bit of an idiot, and its far easier said than done re. 'don't get wound up by X'- it just happens, especially if they're channelling the DM... some people push your crumple buttons, and it's very hard when they do it deliberately. It's incredibly hard however, when you're up against someone, which you obviously are, who will never be in the wrong, nor admit it- head against a brick wall time. It sticks in the craw to have to work out coping mechanisms to deal with them for the sake of your partner and kids, when it's your FIL who's in the wrong with his behaviour and attitudes.

Good luck.

OP, you are not in the wrong, NBU, and should not apologise. Don't even speak words that resemble an apology! FIL will be waiting for it because he sounds like such a pigheaded twat that he'll never admit he was wrong, even if he finally realises just how wrong he is.

I wouldn't cease contact over this, but I would never allow FIL to drive your children around without you being present again. And given the fact he was willing to engage in a row while driving at such high speeds, I'd be considering whether or not I'd want him driving the children at all.

You shouldn't have bitten back at him while the car was moving, but he is without a doubt the one who needs to apologise here. He sounds like a monumental arsehole.

OP, I'm with you. YANBU. My Dad talks to me like this and I hate it. Thinks the safety precautions we take these days are just me being over fussy and he knows better than years of research. Your DH needs to stand up for you more.

The way your FIL spoke to you is out of order and HE should know better than to start arguments as the driver. If he has been driving for 50 years he should know that conversation comes second to driving when at the wheel of a car.

ssd Why should the op be gratefull for her childresn grandparents loving their grandchildren? Isnt that just normal?
Id doubt fil's devotion to them if he is so willing to compromise their safety?
Did you also point out that it is illegal to not have ababy strapped in a car seat?And that as the driver it would be him wh would receive the punishment.

You have nothing to apologise for- he was being a total arse. My fil has the same extreme ridiculous opinions and spend his whole time spouting them because he knows it winds me up. I used to get really annoyed but my dh has had years of just not engaging with them which I have come to realise is the right thing to do. If you don't give any reaction he eventually shuts up. Any sort of reaction just makes him worse- thing is it's a waste of breath as he will never back down and is always right, arguing just makes him even more cantankerous. My MIL says nothing as well as she doesn't want to get involved either.
I have told my dh when ds is older and he starts his homophobic, racist crap he will have to say something but until then I have learnt just to ignore him. If I were you I wouldn't apologise- he should be apologising to you for upsetting you.
If anything is said you must stick to your guns that you are extremely worried about the car situation as your fil has such strong views.

YANBU. That's the sort of ill-informed smartarse nonsense my FIL comes out with every time we visit. He rarely says anything actually offensive, but likes to contradict everything I say, especially baby related things. I made a comment last time about knowing when it's time to convert your cot into a bed when the toddler learns how to climb out. Cue a five minute monologue about how it's simply impossible for a child to be able to do that. Drives me batshit.

I wouldn't apologise either! If he hadn't goaded you so much, the argument would never have escalated.

My dad was the same didn't believe in car seats (at first) remember him and mum buying a second hand one for nephew who's a year older than DD1 and having to fit it by putting seat belt around it as the only other way was to use a fixing kit. It goes back to a generation thing when mine where born car-seats weren't yet compulsory just advisable and when I was growing up we didn't have rear seat-belts in fact our first couple of cars [used]when first married didn't have them we had a harness fitted for DD1 when she outgrew her child seat at 3. Still very wrong to carry on the argument on a busy motorway bloody dangerous apart from anything else.

Nope, sorry but there is no way you need to apologise to your FIL. What the hell is wrong with all the posters suggesting this????
What you said was correct, only an idiot would unstrap a child in a moving car. You do not need to apologise, he does.

The man sounds like an ass and it does sound as though his family don't pull him up on his behaviour, therefore he steam rolls over everyone because no body will stand up to him.

Be proud of yourself and now you found your backbone, don't lose it

YWBU to rise to what he was saying.

If it was bothering him that much, he should have pulled over or gone back home.

YWNBU in what you said.

If he doesn´t think that safety is important, he shouldn´t be looking after young children.

I don´t like the way FIL drives.
They came over to look after PFB when I went to hospital to have second.

They turned up after an hrs drive-"oh, we´ve forgotten to do something, we´ll have to go back, we need the car seat"

I said no, MIL could stay with PFB, FIL could go back alone.

I mean FFS-I told them to take their time , lock up etc, drive carefully as I had a back up should I need to go before they got to me!

Oh, & I wouldn´t apologise as I think you were correct in what you said.

I have happened to meet a few of these old bastards over the years and they love dominating other people, undermining and generally being horrible. The fact that his wife sat there doing nothing is pretty horrible too actually, either she's intimidated by him or she's as bad as him.

I think you put up a sturdy and utterly reasonable defence and I wouldn't blame to in the slightest to say you're not allowing them looking after your children unless they agree fully to respect - key word here, your wishes as the parent. You're the adult in charge of these children. He was treating you like a child. Ooo I am fuming for you now!

OP YANBU- safety comes first, second and third in my book. No question.

My FIL is a very wise man and I have heard him say that of all the legislation passed in his (very long) lifetime the only really good laws (with no bad unintended consequences) have been regarding seatbelts in cars.

OP you poor poor thing! YWNBU, he sounds like an utter dick and your DH needs to step in now and make sure he doesn't do this type of thing to you again. Having views is one thing, using them to belittle you and wind you up is totally unacceptable, especially when it then turns into a horrid, potentially dangerous situation like this.

I think you definitely need to say something to your MIL about of course she can look after the children again but you need her absolute platinum plated assurance she will never ever take them out of their car seats when the car is moving. This is the minimum. Then, your DH needs to sort him out, not you.

My MIL is a lovely woman, nothing like your FIL thank god, but I can find her views on childrearing difficult at times, because it comes from a fifty-years-of-expereince POV (like early weaning). When DS was in his group 0 seat I as always slightly paranoid she would put him in the front seat as she once said it was easier that way. but for me it's a combination of me being PFB paranoid and her being old school, and I can easily just say "I want you to do it this way, and this is why..."

I don't blame you for one second for saying what you said. Not ideal, of course, but he hadpushed you to the limit and you snapped.
Could you maybe see this as a positive step towards getting him to stop treating you in this appalling way? Good luck and a big hug

FIL sounds immensely opinionated and irritating, however rowing on the motorway at 70mph is highly dangerous and you were both putting everyone in the car at risk, as well as everyone else around you.

Sounds like he really gets to you, and I can see why, however he's unlikely to change so you need to find a way of dealing with it in your own head in order to preserve your sanity and prevent unpleasant repetitons of this kind of thing.

IME falling out with relatives creates more hassle than getting on with them, difficult though that might be at times.

for general arguments, you need to stop entering into debates with him. Learn phrases like "well, your entitled to your opinion." Ideally said with a tone of voice like he's just said the world is flat.

Safety is another thing all together, and one you can't back down on. I found a useful one with my mum about 'modern safety concerns' was - "well, a granny's generation were given lead toys to play with, your generation they put mercury in teething formulas, by the time you were raising us you knew better than to do that, just because that's how your parents did it. Scientific understanding moves on, it's moved on a lot in 30 odd years. I'm doing the best for DS as I can, I don't care if it's inconvenient."

Also, if you think for one second he wouldn't keep them strapped in when on car journeys, then he isn't fit to look after your DCs, doesn't matter if he is their grandfather. I'd be avoiding them for a while.

I totally agree with other posters who advocate the deflecting tactics. Over many a year I have learnt that there is no point arguing with a Mail reader.

You'll never change their point of view, they enjoy the sport, it's too stressful and life's too damn short.

I have relatives and work colleagues who regularly spout the most appalling far-right bollocks that make my blood boil and even increases my concerns for their sanity, but I refuse to be drawn. I refuse to engage, to make any sound or sign that would indicate my acquiescence. If I felt someone else in the room was being attacked, that would be a different matter; but for myself - I just let it wash over.

Family and work relationships are otherwise very good - I cannot let these opinions, no matter how crass they may be, sully an otherwise reasonable atmosphere. I try to focus on the kind and pleasant side of their nature; if I didn't, we'd have fallen out disastrously years ago.

Having said all that - whilst sitting there listening to the modern-day Nuremberg Rally tainting my poor ears, I'm merrily envisaging myself battering their heads repeatedly against an aluminium roller door on an industrial estate somewhere; blood, snot and hair flying...

Then I offer them a nice cup of tea.

FiL was the driver and he shouldn't have initiated or enagaged in a row whilst driving. If the police pulled him over, it would be his fault. In law.

My (ex)PiL are no easy people, but just to put all this into perspective they were bloody fastidious about using car seats and then booster seats with all of their grandchildren in their car. As they should have been. And they were grateful, and still are, for the time they have with their grandchildren. They might not always agree with me or their own adult children about child-rearing matters, but they most definitely obey the law and take care of their most precious 'cargo'. The thought of my (ex)FiL shouting at me in a car in just bloody ridiculous.

He sounds like my dad, but with a temper. I hardly ever rise to his bait - it's just not worth it. He has nothing but bigotry to 'inform' his opinions. Just let it wash over you. As for who started the name-calling first, you really shouldnt have called him an idiot. That's what inflamed things most. That and the high-speed driving with crying baby issue, which is bound to raise tempers on both sides.

Are you being unreasonable to contemplate whether to leave your children in his care in future? Absolutely. You both owe the other an apology, and while you're doing that make sure you tell him never to ignore child safety advice like you fear (except that you already know he wouldn't, don't you?)

Apologies on both sides needed.

You shouldn't have risen to the bait - in many ways he's from a completely different world, where car seats were completely optional and many, many children made it into adulthood without one. What he was completely right about was that driving with children screaming and distracting the driver or passengers yelling at the driver is not safe, and he should have pulled over where it was next safe so that everyone could calm down (and not on the hard shoulder which is very dangerous!!)

Just knowing you were 10-15 minutes away from respite might have calmed the whole situation down and all you needed to say was "Yes FIL, you're right that having screaming children in the car is distracting, let's look for the next services and pull over so I can sort DS out".

If you aren't able to let it wash over you, don't put yourself in situations where you have no choice but to put up with it - make visits shorter, keep in touch via phone, make sure you are driving and can therefore pull over when necessary.