To have said this to FIL?

[InsertFlameHere]

Probably, yes. But please read what happened and put yourself in my position. (Have namechanged as this is enough to out me, and I'm never sure if my SIL in on MN!) Sorry, it's a bloody essay.

Just spent a week with PIL while DH was staying for a few nights at a work event nearby. I had both DSs with me - DS1 is 3, DS2 is 7 mo. We stay up with PIL a few times a year, and it's nice for them to be able to host their grandsons rather than slog down to us, a long, expensive drive for them. I never really enjoy my stays up there - it's very much on their territory and all the predictable mother/MIL stresses tend to come out. I also have problems with my FIL - he loves winding me up and I'm generally rubbish at resisting and letting it flow over me (to give an idea, his general stance is to channel the DM, though I don't think he reads it: favourite rants include Foreign Call Centres, Immigrant Labour, Unneccessary Laws Regarding Driving, and EU Interference. ). He always seems to target me with some of his ranting when I'm there (or indeed, when he's down here), but I'm entirely prepared to acknowledge that I'm now paranoid about him winding me up and probably far too defensive. Anyway.

All week long FIL had been chuntering away about 'stupid car-seat laws' because we obviously had to fit car seats into their 4x4 from our own car. He was moaning about how these silly laws meant that if you chose to have more than two children, you'd have to buy a more expensive car because you couldn't fit three childseats in the backs of most cars. I think I may have pointed out that the laws were there as a result of research and crash-testing, and that if you wanted three children then you'd factor that larger car into your choice. Anyway, it was obviously his Rant du Jour.

One day towards the end of the week, we set off for a day trip, me in the back of their 4x4, just about squeezed between the two seats and strapped in safely. On the way, the baby started screaming. He hates car travel and if he's not asleep, he's generally pissed off. I did my best to distract him and it worked for a while (he's not used to me in the back!) but eventually he was just inconsolable. He wasn't in pain, he had recently had a feed and was just pissed off. The crying got to my PIL, understandably.

My FIL started chuntering about how absurd it was, these 'new' laws regarding child restraints, because as any parent knew, sometimes babies just need to be picked up and consoled, and it was ridiculous that it was 'now illegal' for me to pick up DS2 and give him a cuddle. In a moving car. (we were by then on a motorway, doing probably 70 mph +)

I did try to let this flow over me and if I'd just said nothing and biten my tongue at that point, I think he'd have dried up. But I couldn't let that pass, because basically he was saying I should be picking up my baby in a fast-moving car, on a motorway. He kept on saying how these laws were made by people who didn't understand what they were legislating about, who didn't have the practical expertise or life experience to understand the issues. (He comes out with this number ALL the time.)

I pointed out, relatively calmly, that the laws were evidence-based and that people had studied at length exactly what happens to small children who are floating around, unrestrained, in the event of a car accident, and that personally, I was happy to comply sensibly and to cope with DS2 being unhappy for a while because he was strapped in. I then said that surely only an idiot would consider taking a small baby out of its restraints in a fast-moving car.

He exploded at me, basically. 'No, YOU'RE the idiot!' Apparently, I was being absurd because the risks were very small and I could comfort my child quickly if I picked him out of his seat. When I said that DH and I have occasionally pulled over if one of our boys is really upset or we're concerned about them, he said 'well, you can't do that on a motorway! It'd be much more dangerous to sit on a hard shoulder' - which is true, of course, it IS dangerous and I don't think we've ever done that. What I mean is that we sometimes pull into a service station or even come off the motorway at a junction to tend to the boys. He said this was a stupid thing to do (?) and that some motorways didn't even have services... He went on and on. I should have left it, and at one point, as we were both shouting by then (fucking stupid of both of us, we were in a car on the motorway, I know it was stupid and I was BU to continue arguing) I said 'Look, I'm not arguing this any more, it's pointless. I don't want to discuss this any more' but he rode straight over that. Some other things he came out with:

-HE had been driving for over 50 years and therefore knew what he was talking about, I had only been driving 4 years (correction, I've been driving for 5, but FFS, what has that to do with it??) so I didn't know what I was talking about.
-HE had brought up 2 children and therefore was in a position to say all this, and I in comparison, didn't know Jack. (I do have 2 children. I'm not sure why the fact that they're not yet fully grown really excludes me from having an opinion on car-seat safety.)
-When I said that he was the only person I had ever met who held this opinion, that it was OK to take a baby or small child out of their restraints in a fast car to comfort them, he said he didn't care and didn't believe me. I several times asked him to stop shouting at me and take it up with his son, who shared my views and thought that seat restraints were sort of important, but he said he didn't care about his son's views, he was talking to ME and I was the Idiot, etc.

I finally just said, without thinking about the implications -
'What you're saying to me, the way you feel about seat-belts and car-seats, makes me think that in fact, you're not a suitable person to look after my children'.

It did sort of bring him up short (for a few seconds) and then he offered to put me off at the next junction, since I was so keen on pulling off the motorway, and let me find my own way home. I suggested that if he do that, he also leave my two sons with me, because I wasn't happy with him driving them without me there. He back-tracked.

Ok, so now I've basically said I think he's unfit to be in charge of DSs in certain circumstances. I have no doubts that both PIL are devoted to their grandchildren and love them very much. They often have taken DS1 off in their car, either down here or staying up there, either to give me a break or to give DS1 a treat. Now I'm wondering exactly how careful they are with him in the car. Actually, I don't think they'd be as stupid as my FIL was arguing, but it's now opened up a whole area of doubt and I feel uncomfortable about them driving him around. I especially don't want my FIL driving the baby around, especially if MIL were sat in the back (she often does with DS1, so she can talk to him). Was I being unreasonable? Heat of the moment, and all that. I should point out that though this argument was three days ago now, I still feel shell-shocked and very upset, not just because of the implications, but because FIL was throwing these things up to try and undermine me - I haven't been a parent long enough, and haven't been driving long enough, to know what I'm talking about, apparently.

(Incidentally, at some point during this exchange, DS2 calmed down and started chewing my hairbrush happily. When he started up again while we were crawling about looking for a parking space, in desperation I managed to contort myself over him, still strapped in, and stuck a boob in his face. I'm not sure I'd have done this at 80 mph on the motorway, but I was still strapped in. Clearly not something I could do in our own car, since it won't accommodate my generous bum between the car seats.)

Good grief don't apologise! he should be grovelling to you on hands and knees, I would find it very hard to forgive FIL talking to me like that. Especially as you were a guest with them and they should have been looking after you!

Get DH on side and have a serious talk to them both about car seat safety (show FIL literature if neccesary) then reiterate how serious you are that if they cannot/will not acknowledge how vital car seats are they they will not be taking either DC out unsupervised. point out that roads are somewhat busier and faster than they were in PIL's child rearing days...

When DS1 was a baby my PILs couldn't fit the car seat in their car and MIL said 'oh, we'll just drive really carefully'!! My PFB!

Kunfupanda - it was the OP who implied that her FIL was an idiot first.

It's fixable if you apologise for what you said. That was a bit harsh but he shouldn't have shouted at you while driving. In a confined space with tempers rising and a crying baby it was inevitable that someone would snap.

You are right about the car seat though and I can see why you would have doubts but perhaps you need to sit down and have a talk about your fears.

I had to do this with DPs dad when he was in the back seat and I was driving. DD was screaming but we were nearly home. DPs dad unstrapped her and took her out the seat. I instantly pulled the car over and refused to move until she was back in her seat. We were a minute away from home but the point had to be made.

"I think it would have been less dangerous to remove your child from his car seat and pacify him than for you and your FIL to engage in a slanging match which undoubtedly was preventing him from driving with the right level of care and attention. I'm not saying you should have taken your child out of the car seat but I think the argument you BOTH engaged in was potentially more life-threatening."

Agreed. It was fucking stupid of both of us, as I've said. FIL would of course, deny that holding a ranting shoutyfest while driving on a motorway would impair his ability to drive in any way. Yes, he's one of those.

Interesting that lots of you think I ought to apologise. I think I should try to clear the air but I do think that the apology should be from him too, and if I say sorry, I need to make it clear that I still stand by my view that someone who thinks car seat laws are optional isn't a responsible person to drive small children around. Obviously can't put it like that again, it's far too inflammatory, so how the hell do I do it without stoking the fires again?

Also, it's three days later, we are home, thank god, and I don't really talk on the phone to them (they talk to DH and use me to pass on terse messages, or they want me to put DS1 on). Writing a letter would, to them (and me too) make far too much of a fuss of it and they'd think I was being Very Odd indeed.

YANBU. There are some things which which are non-negotiable.

I read about a family who did just what your FIL suggested and crashed. Their baby girl went through the windscreen and died. It was truly dreadful. Perhaps a print-out of a story like that, with a calmly worded letter explaining that you don't expect to have to discuss the issue again, and until you receive his full assurance that he would never ever compromise the safety of your children in this way he won't be driving them anywhere, ever, will do the trick.

You're not arguing about too many icecreams here, it really is a life or death situation.

HOWEVER, you do also need to develop some better strategies for dealing with the DM rants. I find that with my lovely but slightly rightwing rellies saying "well, it's a complicated issue so of course there are lots of different ways of looking at it. Now, who wants a kick in the teeth lovely cup of tea?" in a BRISK and FIRM tone of voice helps. Or "Well, that's not necessarily the only way of looking at it. Ah, is that the DC I hear torturing your cat?" followed by a swift exit works quite well. Less effective in a car obviously but there ARE ways to deflect situations like that.

Often I think rants are a classic mode of attention-seeking behaviour. Does your FIL feel a bit sidelined when you visit perhaps? Talking lots about how much the kids look forward to seeing him / recognised him at the age of two days / love him reading them stories etc could help as he might not feel the need to assert his "status" with rants quite so much. Ordinarily of course I would not advocate sops to the male ego in this way, but needs must with family sometimes...

Catwalker - she said only an idiot would consider doing what he wanted HER to do, ie take the baby out.

In any event, in my view there is a big difference between an implication like that and a direct "you are an idiot", particularly when the situation was initiated and continued by that person.

Catwalker - yup, that's right, I did imply FIL was an idiot. Only indirectly though (sort of passively-aggressively) - as in 'surely only an idiot would pick their child out of a car seat in a fast car'. I left it open.

Shouldn't have used the word at all, clearly. But he seized on it and said 'no, you're the idiot!' several times. Actually, in terms of me feeling insulted, I'm more upset that he threw back at me the fact that I can have no valid opinion on car-seat safety because I've been driving a relatively short period of time (5 years) whereas he's been driving for decades. Also that he's brought up two children (he didn't say, but the implication being that he may have had them unrestrained in the back and it didn't hurt them. Presume this is true because it was the 70's - I know my mum had me floating in a carrycot which itself was strapped in, at times! ). I'm a mother of two children, but clearly I haven't yet succeeded in bringing them up without accidentally killing one of them.

OP - I don't think you need to revisit the issue of him not driving them around unless a specific situation arises - then you will obviously need to deal with it.

As long as they are never driving them alone it probably doesn't need to be discussed again.

This is all assuming that he has apologised and things have moved on of course!

I wouldn't apologize to him. I would accept his apology, if he offers one.
I would never want to be in a car with him driving again though, I would have a panic attack if the driver was having a heated argument while on the highway!

Grumpla - thanks, that's a really helpful post. I do wonder if he feels sidelined. I don't think so, esp. when we visit, but for all her relative reticence, MIL pulls the strings (according to DH!).

Also, and sorry for the drip drip, but I thought my OP was too long as it was!, there may have been additional tensions because MIL is about to have a hip-replacement op late next week, and FIL was a bit distracted by an ongoing banking error while we were there. So probably I should have cut him some slack - and was, until he came out with that blinder! Like I keep on saying, his normal run of DM-style rants I can ignore these days. But this had implications for safety regarding my children and I couldn't let it pass.

Mmm - lots of things here that really do need to be addressed. Ideally, this would be you and your dh putting on a united front and talking to your pil about this together, but it sounds like this is unlikely to happen.

I don't think that ywbu for being upset about what your fil was saying, but you already know that ywbu for having a row when fil should have been concentrating on driving.

If I were you (and to be honest, this really could have been me writing this post) I would write your in laws a letter.
I would say that I was sorry that I took part in an argument on a motorway, as I think that you need to acknowledge that this was dangerous.
I would want to address...

1. That although you fil is entitled to have an opinion on car seats, you need his absolute assurances that he will comply with your wishes (and the law) in relation to this
2. I would acknowledge that you both spoke to each other in a way that was unacceptable, particularly in front of your dc and ask that you both ensure that this does not happen again
3. I would acknowledge that your pil clearly love their grandchildren very much and say how happy you are about this, you could just say that, as their mother there are some things that are non-negotiable and that the car seats are an example of this.

I guess it depends how much you want to build a relationship with your in-laws.
I would run your letter (or email) by your dh too - he needs to fully back you up.

could you talk to MIL about it? Just in an 'of course I wasn't saying I think you can never have the children, I was just pushed to my limits by FIL' kind of way.

By the way - I have done the leaning over the carseat with a boob out thing while on the motorway (DH driving of course!) and would again. Your mil is right, the sound of a baby crying while you are driving is horrible.

Gosh, I type slowely, see that you would not think that writing was the right option.

And I can't spell...

Seen - have discussed with DH sending FIL a card with this in, but we both agree that to him, that would be seen as escalating the incident rather than smoothing it over. Sort of, if it's in writing it's made much more of.

I've asked DH to talk to his mum, if he can get a chance, and say 'InsertFlameHere just wanted to say she's sorry that things got a bit out of hand in the car the other day, but she was just speaking out of a desire to keep her DSs as safe as possible.' and leave it at that. MIL will probably pass that on, though she may decide not to. I can't control that. Another annoying thing is that whenever DH calls his parents (or they call us) they ALWAYS have the bloody speakerphone on so both can hear the whole conversation, so there's no such thing as having a quiet word with one of them.

DuelingFanjo, I've always wondered if I'd be able to boobfeed on the move! I've read about people doing it loads of times. While safely strapped in, of course. It was bloody uncomfortable, but until I realised that I couldn't cram my fat arse between the seats in our own car, I was thinking I might sit in the back on the way back down (3.5 hr trip) so I could deploy a boob if necessary.

Baby crying and not being able to console is always horrible. I feel bad about this, because I'm not into CC at all and try not to let DS2 cry, but with DS1 to attend to as well, there's no doubt that DS2 is left to cry for a few minutes in a way that I never did with DS1, and I think this has blunted me a bit to when he cries in the car. Generally though, he tends to go to sleep pretty fast again and if he doesn't, I'll pull into a supermarket carpark or somewhere and give him some milk. He really hates the car.

You should only apologise when you feel you are in the wrong. No one can say you are in the wrong because you refused to take your son out of his car seat in a moving car on the motorway.

I think your FIL was entirely in the wrong and I wouldn't want him looking after my DC either. He has no respect for you or your way of parenting and is likely to ignore your wishes if he is in the car with the DC and you are not there. I don't believe you can trust him to drive them safely, because he will probably say whatever you want to hear but thinks he knows best and will do what he wants in your absence.

Just because someone has been driving for a long time, it doesn't follow that they are good drivers or safer than someone who has been driving for less time. My FIL had been driving for years (and regularly had little bumps, which he claimed were not his fault at all). Having been in a car with him, I think he avoided more accidents because everyone else got out of his way! Not saying your FIL is a bad driver, just that his argument is flawed.

I don't think you can tolerate someone undermining you, especially in front of your DC and I do think this argument is a big deal. You were right to defend your views. I wouldn't apologise, but next time you see him behave as if the argument never happened (I don't think he is the sort who will apologise to you, although he certainly should). At the same time, I would not let him drive my DC without me being there and I would stop visiting without my DH.

I wouldn't bloody apologise to him!

Sounds like he gets a kick out of arguing with you, tbh.

Maybe he enjoys it? Some people like arguing. Enjoy the challenge of a heated debate. Maybe he likes your feistyness and the way you stand up to him? Or maybe just likes seeing how much you'll take before you bite.

Anyway, in your shoes, I'd try a different tactic.

I'd go hmmmm? and really? and oh. in a bored tone, flicking through a magazine. "oh, do you?" (think that) in monotone. or quietly let him rant for ages, going hmm, and aha in distracted tone. Then, when he grinds to a halt, look up and say "Sorry, did you say something?"

If he is in fact doing this to wind you up, it'll drive him nuts. far more satisfying for you than getting into a row with him.

Insert you know he wants to wind you up and you have a very long debate with him? You are doing him a favour!

I have this problem with my bil and i just reply with the same word every single time: 'Sure'. And then i look away.

You were right on the subject but you are wrong imo to make it personal. On subjects that don't affect your dcs i.e. politics just say 'sure' and then sing (something left-ish ). On subjects that affect your dcs try to only deal with it practically, not emotionally i.e. avoid him driving them alone.

You know that you were out of order too OP. I think you need to apologise too.

Your FIL was wrong and we all know it, but you shouldn't have had a screaming match on the motorway while he was driving.

You need to make up over this.

The main thing is that you need to be 100% sure that MIL would not remove your DC from their seat while he is driving. So you should be able to speak to her calmly about it, and explain that is what you feel strongly about but you are sorry that the conversation got out of hand.

When you've got that assurance, just pretend you didn't say the bit about them not looking after their GCs as that was really harsh.

If your FIL is anything like my SFIL, he's probably forgotten about it by now and would see any mention of it from you yourself as a sign that you wanted to carry on the argument. I think the suggestion of talking to MIL is a good one. She's been dealing with him for years and knows how he ticks.

I agree that you had to challenge him on this one, although I would normally ignore his other rants.
I'm not as passive in dealing with SFIL as I used to be. I found out that he'd hit my son round the head during an argument (DS was about 8 at the time) and MIL didn't tell me for ages. I was absolutely livid about it and DS never stayed with them again.

you both sound pig headed and need to have the last word

i would suggest you both grow up a little bit

I sympathise OP, I have a relative who feels they are the authority on everything and has a penchant for winding people up. Like a real-life troll. And the first rule of the internet is 'don't feed the troll'.

very tricky, especially if they're delivering a spiel hand-tailored to you.

It's easier said than done, but practice will get you there.

"Immigrants get a council house, a car and a goat when they land at heathrow"

"single mothers cause cancer"

"gypsys are responsible for 85% of carbon emissions"

all the while reminding yourself that he's a cuntankerous fool who doesn't know what he's talking about.