My 5 year old niece was told to go home and pray

[freyjasauntie]

I am really upset that my 5 year old niece was told by her school teacher to go home and pray at bedtime. Although she goes to a C of E school, this is due to logistics of living in the country, and the school are aware that she is being raised atheist, (she was enrolled as such) with a view to letting her decide her own path when she is ready to understand what that entails.

If a Muslim teacher had told her girls to go home and wear hijab, there would be uproar, but it seems to be accepted that schools can promote Christian ideology. I have no problems with my niece being taught about Jesus, about being kind to each other, about truth telling and other so called Christian Values (which can be found in almost any religion) but I strongly object to her being told to give up something for Lent (she had no idea why she should do so), and to pray at bedtime.

Religious Education should be EDUCATION, as a qualified RE teacher, I have always presented all world religious as equally valuable, but there is a real difference between education and what I believe is insidious indoctrination.

YABU, I think.

I'm a practicing Christian but don't believe in state-funded faith schools. (We don't have them here, so it may just be that I'm not used to them.) But, as her parents have chosen to send her there, I think they (and you) will just have to deal with it.

Yes thats fine. As long as you understand if you get a place you have to respect the schools faith ethos and not expect to rid all the faith from the school as that is also not fair.

The thing is schools admissions generally are never that fair. Where we used to live the best schools in the area's where the area's were houses started at £600k. So that immediatly discriminated agaisnt us for not being as wealthy.

ARE there state Muslim Sikh and Jewish schools?

There are 8 Muslim state schools news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6338219.stm

Not sure about Jewish numbers but article about one where half pupils are Muslim!
www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/the-jewish-school-where-half-the-pupils-are-muslim-434481.html

Exotic I don't really know what my grandparents were. My mother is generally Christian and my father is a Lutheran though they don't go to church. I am more religious than the two of them put together, probably :) My brother is an atheist who despises religion but admits to occasional agnostic leanings. DH is Catholic (practicing).

Exactly there is nothing wrong with going to a school of different faith to you (I did!) but its simply wrong to expect the school to drop its ethos because you rolled up.

And yes its not true to say Christians etc get more choice- we still have to suffer if we arent minted which is a big reason why we moved.

I agree that faith isnt that much of a biggie to us either- its were dc fits in and where has good results.

Of COURSE Christians get more choice - there are schools where the very fact of being a practising Christian gets you "points" in the admissions lottery!

What if there isnt any faith schools and your too "poor" to afford to live on the really posh roads where the best schools are?

Stop generalising - everyones situation is different!

I didnt have to do anything special for dd faith school- it was purely based on distance. So you would have gotten in before us had you lived nearer.

"Lots about the admission system is unfair."

Yes, and start a thread about any of the other unfairnesses and I'll be there galloping round the thread on my hobby horse.

but this thread is about the particular unfairness that is the "faith" criterion.

You then bring grammar schools into the mix. Is that fair-to give what are perceived the 'best schools' to those with the highest IQ? Don't those with below averageIQ deserve the best schools?

I was under the impression that this thread was not about choice of school ,but about rural areas where there was no choice and parents had to send to the faith school regardless of the fact they had no faith. Why has it changed to school choice?

Faith schools are a complete red herring. The whole school lottery business is very unfair.Parental choice is a complete myth. They only have choice if there is room in the school. There is no room in good schools.

I call it very unfair that I can afford to move to an area with good schools. If I was in a village with a school I didn't like I would move-how is that fair if others can't move?

There seems to be a lot of misunderstandings-of course there are state faith schools that are not Christian faith-not many but it is a Christian country.

No one has told me yet why their DC has to think the same as them. I don't think it a straw man argument.

I think it laughable that if you took faith schools out of the choice it would make for a fair system! There would still be nothing remotely fair about it.

'No one has told me yet why their DC has to think the same as them. I don't think it a straw man argument."

I didn;t say they didd. That's one of the reasons children should be taught about religion in schools.

Christians seem to want their children to think the same as them - that's why they want faith schools!

Christians seem to want their children to think the same as them - that's why they want faith schools!

I don't think they do! They want them because they tend to be the best school. Parents want the best for their DC. In our area, where schools are good, practising Christians often opt for the non faith school, if they think it better for their DC. They don't need a school to promote the Christian side if they are heavily involved in the church and there, with their DCs, every Sunday-and beyond. It just so happens that the caring ethos of the school makes it one of the best-as shown by non Christians wanting it.

Parents have never had the Christian part in the forefront. GiddyPickle has explained why they were set up.It was in the Churches interest to have them reading the bible and brought up in a 'godly' way-I would bet the parents wanted them to be able to read,write and do arithmetic and were just grateful someone one was doing it. I can't imagine anyone in the catchment area was saying 'wow-we can have our DCs brought up as Christians'! They had the church to do that-the same as today-if they want it.

I haven't chosen faith schools-they were not the best option in my area (if they had been I would have chosen them). I did take them to church to get a grounding -they soon refused to go. They are atheists. What I really don't understand is why it matters. Experience must tell Christians that taking their DCs to church ,and sending them to faith schools,isn't going to make them Christians-otherwise the churches would be full to overflowing! People do not follow their parents. Atheists seem to have a problem the other way around and can't get used to the idea that although they may be disparaging at every opportunity, with talk of 'imaginary friends' etc their DC may be looking for the spiritual and become a Christian, Sikh etc. Why does it matter?

The admissions criteria for faith schools is changing anyway-they have been told they have to serve the wider community. They still make it perfectly clear what they stand for-don't send your DC and expect them to change for you. And-you can opt your DC out of the faith part.

Seeker - exactly - the idea that children should have the same religious beliefs as their parents underpins the whole faith school system.

Parents' religious beliefs should have as much relevance as their politics or their football team to their children's education.

Have ! held forth on her about my "selection by juggling" theory?

People are utterly mad if they think that their DCs are going to grow up Christian because their parent's wanted it! I bet there are far more who aren't than are.
It is the same with football-my DH supports a team -but DS1 supports a different team, DS2 a different one again and DS 3 can't stand football. Why should they follow father?-he decided for himself-it isn't in his gift to choose for anyone else.Why should he mind? (he doesn't)

Probably, but I'll do it again. If you have two completely equal schools (impossible, but try and imagine it). One takes anyone who applies based on proximity - taking children from further and further away until it's full. You don't hhave to do anything to get your child into that school, you are just automatically allocated it.

The other one has an admissions criterion that at least one of the parents has to learn to juggle for their child to get a place.

No prizes for guessing which school will get the better results.

If you give any Christian a choice of 2 schools and one is faith, but a failing school, and one is non faith but has a wonderful reputation and outstanding Ofsted-they would go for non faith every time. It happened in my village-people had to jump through hoops to get in the Cof E-they got a new Head-it went downhill fast and they left in droves!
It just generally happens that the faith school is the best. Very few parents are remotely interested in the Christian part-they only 'found God' to get a place!!

But the fact you admit that 2 schools will never be completly equal makes the rest of your point invalid.

Locally I can think of 2 catholic schools one is fantastic one is awful, both have exactly the same entry criteria. The local c of e school is great, the local community primary is fantastic. Of course it is the fantastic one that is over subscribed. I live closer to the community primary but know I have more chance of getting Ds into the c of e school.

It's not as simplistic as you seem to think

"Very few parents are remotely interested in the Christian part-they only 'found God' to get a place!!"

That's even more outrageous - can't you see how outrageous that is?

"But the fact you admit that 2 schools will never be completly equal makes the rest of your point invalid" Why does it?.