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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

My 5 year old niece was told to go home and pray

490 replies

freyjasauntie · 21/07/2011 10:56

I am really upset that my 5 year old niece was told by her school teacher to go home and pray at bedtime. Although she goes to a C of E school, this is due to logistics of living in the country, and the school are aware that she is being raised atheist, (she was enrolled as such) with a view to letting her decide her own path when she is ready to understand what that entails.

If a Muslim teacher had told her girls to go home and wear hijab, there would be uproar, but it seems to be accepted that schools can promote Christian ideology. I have no problems with my niece being taught about Jesus, about being kind to each other, about truth telling and other so called Christian Values (which can be found in almost any religion) but I strongly object to her being told to give up something for Lent (she had no idea why she should do so), and to pray at bedtime.

Religious Education should be EDUCATION, as a qualified RE teacher, I have always presented all world religious as equally valuable, but there is a real difference between education and what I believe is insidious indoctrination.

OP posts:
Cocoflower · 21/07/2011 19:19

"If you want your kid to get a religious education then pay for it."

Ok then, lets do it. Then the ONE school you have access to you now have to pay for too.

lubberlich · 21/07/2011 19:20

Pigletmania - If you are really not happy, and its important to you, why don't you move to an area with a selection of schools
What phenomenal arrogance.
I am a single mother. I have cancer.
Why the fuck should I relocate just because a bunch of godbotherers have taken over the local school?

Sirzy · 21/07/2011 19:20

So basically you should have the choice of a non religious school but unless people have the money to pay nobody should have the choice of a religious school? How does that work?

Ideally everyone would have a choice of schools, unfortunately it is an issue in some areas that isn't possible but I dont see that as a good argument against religious schools.

Cocoflower · 21/07/2011 19:21

And if its the only school and you cant afford it your pretty much screwed, huh?

Peachy · 21/07/2011 19:22

It's hard when tehre are limited choices; I am a Quaker and my boys go to a CofW which is the only school theya re in the catchment for anyway. But the only school that can meet ds3's autism seems to eb a catholic School and that makes me uncomfortable. it's that or HE though as he can;t be in the same place as his also ASD brotehr who is at the main provision.

However go home and pray is ahrdly the end of the world tbh. At our school even though it's the local and I can't get permission to apply to the other as it is over sunscribed (odd system here) you have to sign a slip stating you are happy for your child to be educated as a (their definition of) Christian. If not it's HE I guess so we suck it up.

soverylucky · 21/07/2011 19:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

pigletmania · 21/07/2011 19:24

libberlich I am not a mind reader, I do not know your circumstances, it was a suggestion if you were that unhappy. Yes YABU its a faith school whether you like it or not, and yes it will have a Christian ethos, you cannot change the way of life of the school for you!

GiddyPickle · 21/07/2011 19:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

exoticfruits · 21/07/2011 19:32

As far as I can tell the church owns the building and land-how would it work if they were not allowed to be faith schools because they were the only school? Would the state just seize it-bearing in mind that they couldn't afford to buy it at the market price? Or is the church supposed to just hand it over-bearing in mind that it was probably given to them by a landowner in the days when the church was the only body interested in educating the masses?

upahill · 21/07/2011 19:34

would you like a list of my qualifications and universities attended, schools, colleges and universities taught at? yeah I would if you don't mind.

YABU Let your niece's parents decide what is best for their daughter'
It is a faith school. My son comes home and says his prayers on the instruction of the school and the school remind us about going to mass.

Has this really happened to your niece or do you just want to have a controvesial thread?

Original poster
freyjasauntie · 21/07/2011 19:39

ah, irony is once again too subtle for some.

OP posts:
upahill · 21/07/2011 19:41

So you are smug as well as annoying then?

exoticfruits · 21/07/2011 19:41

Having googled it a bit I don't think that the state could afford to take over church schools-they are probably just grateful they are there!

Original poster
freyjasauntie · 21/07/2011 19:43

sorry wrong thread. was going to say that my quals are BA Hons, PGCE, MA. But my point was that someone within the field should be aware of these kinds of issues. I didn't make this up for an argument - I am genuinely concerned about my niece being instructed to take part in religious ritual.

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 21/07/2011 19:45

In 1870 the state provided board schools in the places where there was no faith school. (I think it was the date). Most villages had a faith school. If the state didn't want them they would have to have bought them and changed them-still true today I would imagine.

Sirzy · 21/07/2011 19:45

But why? What is wrong with prayer being mentioned in a church school? You didn't seriously expect it not to be?

As I said earlier its most likely a case of the teacher said "x is ill, perhaps you could all say a prayer for him tonight" or other similar context - what is wrong with that?

exoticfruits · 21/07/2011 19:46

But is your niece concerned?

exoticfruits · 21/07/2011 19:46

If she -or her parents are concerned-they can opt out.

FreudianSlipper · 21/07/2011 19:48

how is wearing a hijab comparable, stupid comparison

she is at a C of E school what did you expect

edam · 21/07/2011 19:51

Church schools will know whether they are the only state school for miles around. Those that are should cater for the whole population - not act as if every single family has opted in to Christianity.

I went to a CofE school in the late 70s/early 80s. It was just the the local school. We did Assemblies with hymns every day, nativity, harvest festival, easter etc. etc. and had the local vicar in once a week. But I don't remember being indoctrinated - taught about Christianity but not ordered to go home and pray (although we did pray in Assembly). And we learned about all the major world religions in RE.

It was a good balance IMO. I'm very grateful for the knowledge of Christianity, which comes in handy when you live in a Western European nation if you want to stand a chance of understanding history, art, literature and many other subjects. Helps you to decode paintings when you visit an art gallery, if nothing else.

upahill · 21/07/2011 19:53

Fair enough OP but I am always suspicious about posts like these.

I do feel you are taken the role of aunty a bit far. Let the parents battle it out between them. I'm sure the one that doesn't agree with you will think you are an interfereing old bat and you won't be thanked for sticking your oar in.

I know our school used the children's prayer time at night to help the child focus on what has happened in the day and to see if they could have done things differently eg could they have been kinder to other children, were they rude to their mums and dads that sort of thing.
No harm in that.

A childs prayer is quite sweet and is usally a rambling of the days events and being grateful for things they have, which I don't think is a bad thing.

TheHumanCatapult · 21/07/2011 19:54

dd goes to cofE school as by defualt it is the only school in he village .And gets asked if she prays at her home and why not .She just says no and that various people believe differnt things .she attend sthe curch services etc but I accepted that is part and parcel of CandE school.

But it is jus balanced a home and she knows she can ask questons and understand if does not wan to say prayer in school .thats ok bu she knows that if thats the case she should jus bow er head and sit quitely while others do as that is just respect and that be the same no matter who to or where someone is praying

Himalaya · 21/07/2011 19:55

Exotic - how about this, the church agrees that if the people of a district vote that they would rather have a non-sectarian community school in place of the faith school they happen to have by historical accident, then the church will lease the land and buildings to the LEA at a nominal rent (£1) on condition that it remains in use as a school.

Sorry, it's a bit off topic but it isn't hard to think how this could be done.

mathanxiety · 21/07/2011 20:16

'So basically you should have the choice of a non religious school but unless people have the money to pay nobody should have the choice of a religious school? How does that work?'

That is how it works in the US, and very successfully too. You want a religious school for your child(ren), you pay. Otherwise, you send them to the public school and then to Religious Ed in the parish for an hour on a weekend night or during the weekend. I sent mine to a Catholic school in the US and I paid. There were equally good public schools available. Plenty of parents who are not remotely Catholic send their children to Catholic schools in cities across the US because the public schools are horrible, and they pay too.

Catholic and other faith schools receive no funding whatsoever from the state. The schools and their parishes are completely self-funding. If a school's enrollment drops below sustainable levels, the diocese closes it down and amalgamates it with viable schools. Parish schools therefore strive to be extremely attractive to parents and academic results tend to be excellent. Market forces rule -- Catholic schools with excellent academic reputations have more applicants than places.

LostMyIdentityAlongTheWay · 21/07/2011 20:26

OP, I read pages 1 and 2, then this one. Sorry if I've missed out on the key information inbetween times that would answer this - but I just don't understand what it has to do with you. I honestly and simply do not.

Why are you SO involved with your niece's education? The plain and simple facts, regardless of anything else are.... she is not your daughter, she is at a faith school, praying as an active act, not passive, has been suggested to her.

What would be SO totally wrong with that? I'm also a Quaker, and so although I have a faith, I don't believe it needs to be expressed in terms of concrete Christian terms such as Jesus / God, etc... However, for a child to have reflective time, thinking about something deeply and asking an external 'presence' for guidance or whatever, is not such a biggie. Why can't the parents get involved and talk through her prayer with her? What is the problem? It's a Christian faith school in a country that espouses a Protestant/Catholic faith - simply WHY do you think you have the right to get involved?

You've posted on the AIBU board and had lots of replies that you are. Take the time to think through the points. Maybe they're right? It is absolutely not your business, sorry but I don't think it is. If my sister came and told me her thougths on my daughter being advised similarly, I would point out that unless it is HER child, she can keep such opinions to herself. I don't think it's for you to be an overtly directive moral compass to your niece unless her parents have asked you to be, surely?

Take this in the spirit in which it's meant. Not aggressive, but certainly questioning your right to feel this and be justified in it...