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Original poster

To ask what do you think of father's for justice

127 replies

AuntiePickleBottom · 10/07/2011 21:25

www.fathers-4-justice.org/hunger4justice.php

having supported DH in his fight to see his DD, i can understand why some father's want to take action.

at the same time i can understand why some mother's refuse access

OP posts:
DitaVonCheese · 10/07/2011 23:16

Violet I didn't say that mothers have more of a bond with their children Hmm I said that they are more likely to be the primary caregivers. Not because they gave birth to them but because generally in our society it is more usual for mums to stay at home and look after babies/children and the men to go out to work.

Obviously if both parents work FT then they may well share childcare 50-50, in which case the court will decide on the merits of the case.

I don't really understand the question "Is there any reason why the mothers would get residence over the fathers?!" Confused

VioletV · 10/07/2011 23:16

Hardly. I speak from personal experience and others who I know have been in the situation. Although fact is, women give birth. Women have a bond with their baby more so than a father when baby is very young. So nothing I've actually said isn't facts.

LineRunner · 10/07/2011 23:19

My point is that there are fathers who walk out on their children and then go for contact orders they have no intention of keeping anyway. I thunk they do it to make themselves look good in front of their family and new partner ('oooh, poor me') or out of guilt.

The family court judges admit that men don't have to honour them.

Original poster
AuntiePickleBottom · 10/07/2011 23:19

violet women suffer from PND because they can't biond with there babies, so your facts are wrong.

OP posts:
scottishmummy · 10/07/2011 23:20

peddling biological pre-determinism as fact,doesn't benefit men or women.it
is more complicated than that.hence the difficulty in residence hearing.social reports, subjective accounts.

LineRunner · 10/07/2011 23:21

I give up.

Bye.

smallmotherbigheart · 10/07/2011 23:21

LineRunner I feel your pain. My wondeful ex pays no child support, was also abusive. Nonetheless I still gave him contact on weekends. He fucked that all up, wouldnt turn up or anything,and when he did he would take opportunities to pretend to go to the toilet and search my room. My mum heard him in there one day. He was also turning up to my workplace and making abusive phonecalls. So naturally after a while I told him no because it was sending my son mixed messages and creating too much hostility. He then took it upon himself to go to a solicitor and now he gets a mere 2hrs every fortnight in a supervised contact centre. He doesn't even turn up for that!! And its my son that suffers everytime he's the only child whose dad didnt turn up.

Meanwhile he tells his brother that he will join fathers for justice.... fathers for convenience indeed!!

VioletV · 10/07/2011 23:21

Dita You're read that wrong I didn't say you said that. I said that I said you said..And I quote

As Dita has said above, mothers will get custody or residence as she put it because especially when they are small. It's got nothing to do with the fact who is the better parent

You said in our society mothers tend to get given residence. My question as you worked in family law is why does it normally go to the mothers 95% I think?

scottishmummy · 10/07/2011 23:23

giving birth is not indicative of quality of future parenting
you really are peddling the "well when men have babies and suffer as we do...then they can talk".and its lame

sunshineandbooks · 10/07/2011 23:23

good post by smallmotherbigheart I thought. THere are bad RPs and bad NRPs and you can only judge each individual case on its own merits.

However, there are definite trends.

Given that most separating couples don't end up having residency battles in court, you can only assume that most men don't want residency. Or at least don't care enough to fight for it.

For similar reasons mothers tend to end up with residency when cases do go to court - because they're the ones who have provided most of the childcare up to separation and the continuation of that status quo is what's best for a child struggling to come to terms with his/her parents separating.

Where are the men clamouring for increased paternity rights? Where are the men asking for flexible working or taking part-time work to spend more time with their DC? If more men tried to do this before splitting up, residency arrangements would change beyond all recognition.

And being a shit husband (as someone put it earlier) can mean someone is a shit dad. Not always, but it can. It would depend on in what way they were shit. Affairs? No real reason why that should affect parenting ability I agree. Abuse? Abusive men will hurt their DC, even if the DC are not their target.

There are women out there who do deny contact out of spite, just as there are men out there who refuse to pay maintenance out of spite. I would support any male friend of mine who used the law to full advantage to gain access to his DC if his XP were preventing contact for spiteful reasons. I would be seriously Hmm about the purity of his motives if he enlisted the help of F4J though.

VioletV · 10/07/2011 23:25

AuntiePickleBottom Where does PND come into this thread now?! FFS. Infact I'm not even going to get into it.

Linerunner You are spot on re the court orders and doing it so they look good.

scottishmummy · 10/07/2011 23:27

pnd affects maternal bond.impedes attachment.not all mums have same experience or automatic experience of give birth and have a bond

Original poster
AuntiePickleBottom · 10/07/2011 23:28

Women have a bond with their baby more so than a father when baby is very young

that is a sweeping statement, not all mother feel bonded with there babies

OP posts:
VioletV · 10/07/2011 23:30

Scottish I'm done typing to you as you seem to be on repeat with twisting my words and yet have the cheek to brand me as lame. The irony.

sunshineandbooks when you mention affairs and about it not being a real reason that it should affect the parenting, How is a person who had an affair a role model for a child? Don't parents want their children growing up with good role models and morals and principles? How can a parents demonstrate being a good role model if they're cheated?

cory · 10/07/2011 23:33

Violet, what if the father has been the primary care giver since the child was tiny? I know a few families like this.

Tchootnika · 10/07/2011 23:33

It's been said before, but worth repeating, as there are several posts here that miss the point:
It's no longer the case that mothers end up automatically with residency... (nor is there evidence that mothers are favoured in this respect, any more.)
Primary carer will have residency rights.
And where courts restrict contact, there are very good reasons.
(Also excellent point above re. extreme dubiousness of the very idea that any parental interests should take priority over those of child.)
... Which IMO, makes F4J look fairly dodgy, to say the least.

VioletV · 10/07/2011 23:36

Cory I do too. I actually know 3 men who are. If they have the bond then fair enough. I guess they fall into the 5%.

DitaVonCheese · 10/07/2011 23:40

Mothers tend to get residence because mothers tend to be primary caregivers, particularly when DC are small. I thought that was pretty clear.

Or what sunshineandbooks said :)

VioletV · 10/07/2011 23:48

Oh it's clear alright I just wanted it clarified...

sunshineandbooks · 10/07/2011 23:49

Violet I will admit that having never cheated on anyone nor been cheated on myself, my opinion on this might not count for much. That's fine, it's just an opinion. I may feel very differently had it happened to me and I admit that.

The reason I said that was because I don't feel it's necessary for parents to have a strong commitment to each other in order to have a strong commitment to their child. However, a parent who makes their children complicit in an affair, or who misses out on an important event for the child because they are engaged in an affair, certainly could have their parenting commitment questioned, I agree.

I guess you could also argue the toss about respect - in the sense that any parent who respects their child's life would not jeopardise that by having an affair. I don't think it's that straightforward in many cases though TBH. Then again you could argue that a person who has an affair clearly has no respect for their partner, and anyone who has no respect for their child's other parent is someone who could hurt the child by mistake. This is complicated too though. I have zero respect for my X. But I am very careful to be respectful to him on the rare occasions when I see him and I never run him down in front of my DC either. I do not want to see my DC hurt, embarrassed or uncomfortable, nor do I want them to question whether the half of them that comes from him is somehow 'faulty'. Likewise, a parent having an affair could be kidding themselves that they will never be found out and that their lack of respect to the other parent will never be discovered by the DC.

Kewcumber · 10/07/2011 23:49

violet - so as I didn't give birth to my son I'm not entitled to a voice despite the fact that I'm his primary carer? Bizarre logic.

The adoption system is full of children whose mothers were incapable for one reason or another of adequately parenting their children despite having given birth to them. In fact springing a child forth from their loins seems to provide a marked lack of magic parenting fairy dust.

Kewcumber · 10/07/2011 23:51

FWIW re F4J - my heart bleeds for any parent who wants more access or custody, I can't imagine the pain of not seeing DS daily. But totally impossible to separate the genuine from the control freak/media manipulators.

VioletV · 10/07/2011 23:57

sunshineandbooks Thanks for replying. Just because it;s not happened to you doesn't mean your opinion isn't anymore valid :) I see exactly what you're saying and it is complicated. I think you're 100% right with not running down a partner in front of a child. Kids can make their own minds up when they;re older.

Kew I haven't said every man who didn't give birth doesn't have an opinion. My comment was made in answer to another poster who didn't see why mothers should get automatic custody. IMO mothers should get custody or residence as they did give life to the child unless they are seen unfit

EvenLessNarkyPuffin · 10/07/2011 23:58

There
'The door is over there.'

Their
'People should mind their own business.'

smallmotherbigheart · 10/07/2011 23:58

I wouldn't assume that someone who has an affair is automatically a bad parent.... I don't even know why that is being mentioned!! It's fascinatingly weird how this thread actually imitates what these access cases are about- all about the blame, resentment and anger of the parents and not much to do with the child....

.. so, should parents who have had affairs have social workers come to visit??? I mean, what the hell is the suggestion here???

And as for the womb argument.... meh!! LOL, like Kewcumber just said plenty mothers have had their children removed on the basis of their incompetence. At the end of the day, this shouldn't be about a power struggle but a child who needs its parents, what the hell is so difficult to understand???

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