To consider retraining as a barrister?

[princessglitter]

I am a teacher in middle management with a fairly secure, reasonably satisfying career. I have always dreamed of a career in the law. Originally I considered becoming a solicitor, doing a conversion course and going down the LPC route.

However, at the last minute, I lost my nerve and pulled out of my college course. The idea of that amount of debt was horrifying to me.

I trained as a teacher, but has always felt unfulfilled if I'm honest. As I've got older, the idea of retraining as a barrister has become more appealing, but I am acutely aware that so many fall by the wayside. I have secured a mini-pupillage this summer, which I am extremely excited about. I am also going to apply for vacation schemes at solicitors' firms to enable me to make an informed decision.

I do have a strong academic background and an Oxbridge 2.1 - but I know that that alone will not be enough.

Am I unreasonable to take a risk (with my husband's support) and consider a career in the law? Possibly as a barrister, but I intend to research this thoroughly with some real experience in both areas and different specialisms.

PG - this 18 month GDL - is it COL or BPP Manchester by any chance? starting in January?

I'm on the cusp of taking the plunge myelf. I did a placement a couple of months ago at a big northern solicitors in the area I'm interested in, and was pretty much hooked. It's not quite such a massive change for me as it would be for you. I've worked for 12-odd years in a legalish environment, and I have an LLM. (also, like you, an Oxbridge 2:1)

I don't want to say much more but if you want to swap a few pms am more than happy.

I assume you;ve been doing lots of on-line research? just in case, you should check out the following(forgive me for not posting full-names/links - just google them and you'll find them)

• trainee solicitor
• roll on friday
• law careers net

Trainee solicitor is very amusing for us "mature" candidates - there's quite a few pompous 21- year olds who think they're going to conquer the world. bless. but it has some interesting stuff too.

oh and, for me personally, I've decided very much against the bar route. I too have a supportive p-t dh but I think the pressures of the bar would be asking an awful lot - getting your case a day or two before court - and never, (well, not until you're v. established), being able to turn it down.

haven't read the whole thread.

I'm a solicitor. I'll be honest, I wouldn't advise it, for all the reasons mentioned above. Both the solicitor and barrister options are incredibly competitive (with an Oxbridge 2:1 you'd be ok but your age and family would, I suspect, count against you). The early years for both professions - especially solicitors - are full of really dull non-legal tasks rather than really being a lawyer. Training is expensive. They are also incredibly un-family friendly. Hours are very long and very unpredictable - you are at the client's beck and call plus the beck and call of more senior lawyers. Senior women are rare in both - there is a reason for that.

Why have you always dreamed of the law? What is it that attracts you to it? What do you think it offers that you can't get from your current career? Do you know many/any lawyers?

...can you tell I'm disillusioned

Please don't think it's easier in the North West to gain pupillage. It's not. I know far too many barristers who have not gained pupillage, with far greater experience.

It's still impossible here, and the solicitor route is nigh on impossible too. Training contracts are at an all time low, and the legal sector is flooded with those who trained as barristers and can't get work, so did the conversion to be a solicitor (in the bid to practice whilst still gaining pupillage).

Would you be prepared to photocopy, make tea and be a general dogs body for a law firm? I know a few barristers who have started off at the very bottom whilst studying (myself included - and I'm not even fully qualified yet). You would need grit, determination and be prepared to struggle for a rubbish pay packet, especially if you're considering legal aid (most interesting areas though).

The pay is not great, despite what you read on here. Solicitors working in legal aid in the North West average about £25k - £35k. Barristers make a fair bit more, however there are more outlay costs, and high taxes. One of the best barristers I know makes £250K in a good year. He works none stop, and whilst his salary looks appealing, bear in mind he has to pay for his share in Chambers, tax and wining and dining lawyers to ensure he continues to get work. I used to deliver briefs to this guy late at night, every evening, even on weekends.

Trainee barristers work long hours and do a lot of work in Magistrates courts and get paid very poorly for the privilege. Trainee solicitors generally get paid £16K. Not fun for all the hours you'll put in.

I've no idea about private law firms, generally they make a lot more money but the press increases and it does lead to less interesting areas of law (unless contract, civil or business law etc does it for you).

Its not easy with children either. Please take all of these considerations seriously as it would be such a shame to go through all of that to end up in a career you hate.

Still want to go for it? Then go forth with reckless abandon and with a massive grin on your face. If this doesn't put you off, nothing will. :)

Before I had children it was the best job ever. Lots of shleping around EC4 two sheets to the wind. Was prob not v healthy (mentally) though. Still love being on my feet now. It's a rush. I do crime, which is very interesting if you are gossipy and slightly immature. This thread has reminded me about how much I want to go back to work, even though DS2 is but 8 weeks old.

Before I had children it was the best job ever.

Agreed, but with kids, it is hard to give it the energy it needs

crime, which is very interesting if you are gossipy and slightly immature

That is beautifully, beautifully put, bringmesunshine.

crime, which is very interesting if you are gossipy and slightly immature

Now I know wjy it appealed so much!

Anyone else wondering now if they know (in RL) anyone on this thread?

Yep... I was wondering just that, Queen.

Xenia yes there are solicitors and barristers earning that kind of money but they are very few and far between. In a law firm it would be the few top most partners at the top of their game who would be on that kind of money and then only in a handful of firms. The equivalent is true at the Bar.

Most won't even get on the first rung of partnership and even if they do, they will have been working for 10yrs+ after their training contracts to get there. The stats for making partner are terrible. The large firms take on 80-100 trainees each year and promote single figures to the partnership on an average year. The odds are really not good.

You mentioned making similar money from running a network of schools - the people making the big bucks are the legal equivalent of someone running that kind of business. They will (in a firm at least) be looking after dozens of staff and managing a large part of a significant business, with massive responsibility to bring in deals or cases to "feed" all the mouths that depend on them.

If it's the academic side that you are interested in could you pursue further studies while still teaching? It's not my area but could you go onto doctorate and then teach at uni? It would use your skills and keep the brain going without going into such a difficult profession.

I got a psychology degree with OU (first degree was Oxbridge) while pregnant/ babies around just to keep the mind ticking over and had planned to retrain as a psychologist but it just isn't going to fit around with where we live and my family. So I'm thinking of going back into teaching!

I feel very mediocre now! Quite depressing :(

I do feel I need more of an academic challenge. This thread has given me lots to think about. I guess my mini pupillage will also be illuminating.

Hi there,

I haven't had time to read the whole thread so apologies if I repeat anything that's been said already, but just wanted to add my experience and hopefully give you some positive aspects to think about.

I am 35 and was called to the Bar in 2009 so started my training quite late in life after a lot of dithering having wanted to be a barrister since I was a teenager but never really committing to doing it. I did the conversion course part time in the evenings while working full time and then managed to get a pupillage with the Government Legal Service who funded my BVC so I was able to leave work and do the BVC full time. I now work in the GLS as an employed barrister and I think this is something worth looking at if you have a family and fancy the idea of staying in the public sector and having a manageable work life balance and regular income. The work is very challenging, topical, and interesting and usually includes drafting secondary legislation which no other strand of the profession does. The area of law depends on the department you are in but generally speaking the work involves a lot of public law and human rights. I do pure advisory work and also litigation.

I do not have an Oxbridge degree (although I do have a first it is from a poly) and my A levels were awful. The selection process for the GLS is tough but as long as you have a degree they don't care where its from and they take each applicant on their merits. Please feel free to send me a personal message if you'd like some more information.

The cons are as follows:

. the GLS is very london centric although my government department has a base in the NW as well.

. advocacy opportunities are limited but I have appeared in various Tribunals from time to time.

So, what I wanted to say is that it is perfectly possible to become a barrister at your stage of life. You are clearly bright and determined with a lot of transferable skills and I'm one of those that believes in doing what feels right for you and not having regrets about not trying something you've always wanted to do. The self employed bar is very very hard to break into and make a succes of, but you know that and as long as you go in with realistic expectations then it's ultimately a matter for you. I just wanted to say that it might be worth thinking outisde of the box of the self employed bar because its not the only option.

Sorry for any typos but 2 month old DS is screeching so I'm rushing!

Hope that helps!

princessglitter Mon 11-Jul-11 17:55:41
I feel very mediocre now! Quite depressing

If you'll forgive my bluntness, whilst an Oxbridge 2.1 is a great catch for most schools for a teaching position, its a base minimum you'll need to be a barrister and for some chambers it won't be sufficient. I'm afraid you certainly wouldn't be viewed as anything particularly special - sorry. The more prestigious commercial firms in particular are often only interested in those with firsts.

Have you considered doing a Masters in Education or similar if you're looking for more academic challenge?

I can't think of anything more mind numbing than a masters in education.

Lots of different views on the thread but a lot of lawyers do love their work and plenty of women earn a lot of money. If you want to and are good then you can. The early pay isn't bad in London too, better than teaching.

Far too many women don't have enough self belief. You could be the best there is in the UK at what you do and earn a fortune doing work you adore. If that's possible and there's no reason why not, go for it.

princessglitter - I think it sounds as if you'd really, really enjoy a conversion course, regardless of what you do with it, and I really can't see that you've anything to lose from at least doing that - and then considering further whether you're 'good enough' or 'up to it' or whatever else you've been asked so far by MN interview panel.

I think I would enjoy the conversion course, just for its own sake. The ideal thing would be if I could combine it with teaching so I could earn and learn, but don't know how I could fit in study leave and time off for exams.

I guess I don't have to make any decisions just yet, but I refuse to believe I am on the scrapheap aged 31. And I am more than just a 2.1

My daughters did it (full time) but lots of people work and do it over 2 years part time and that might be better unless you can find a law firm to sponsor you over it and the LPC which is the easiest option (if you can get that sponsorship).

I didn't do the GDL (have a law degree) but from what I hear from those who did it is basically one big cramming exercise. Its not an opportunity to sit and ponder principles of law, its about getting enough in your head to pass the exams in a parrot like manner. So you should have a think about whether that is the sort of challenge you'd be interested in or whether you think you'd find it frustrating.

In terms of doing it part time, have you looked into whether distance learning is an option? Also in London some places do weekend or evenings only and whilst you'd need to look at when the exams were, it could be an option?

I have a very good memory and can retain massive amounts of factual info (can't tell you where I last put my keys mind you) so I think that style of learning would suit me.

Distance learning is a possibility - it is just that my school wouldn't actually give me time off to do the exams.

I know one person who did this and walked into a pupillage with a bursary, however he had extremely specialised industry knowledge which pretty much guaranteed him a lucrative career. If you dont have specialised knowledge that would help you as a barrister then the going will be tough. Having said that, the market could change by the time you've qualified.

Ok so you may be GOOD at the style of the GDL but what you need to think about if you're thinking of doing if for its own sake, is it your idea of how you want to spend your evenings and weekends for 1-2 years? Not forgetting the cost of course.

I can also retains huge amounts of info for a short time, and that served me really well when doing my degree, but doing more cramming style courses now is my idea of hell!

Im quite shocked at how short the training appears to be in UK. Where Im from you have to get a Bachelors degree in Law first as a MINIMUM before even considering clerkship

MrsK the GDL aint the whole training, not by any stretch. It's just the start...
princessglitter and NoMoreWasabi - yes, you can approach GDL as a hugely tedious cramming exercise, but if you're interested in law, and you're first degree is in something else, then obv it's the way to progress further...
Yes, cramming is needed to pass exams (obviously), but you also have necessary materials, contacts etc. for much more in depth study.