To consider retraining as a barrister?

[princessglitter]

I am a teacher in middle management with a fairly secure, reasonably satisfying career. I have always dreamed of a career in the law. Originally I considered becoming a solicitor, doing a conversion course and going down the LPC route.

However, at the last minute, I lost my nerve and pulled out of my college course. The idea of that amount of debt was horrifying to me.

I trained as a teacher, but has always felt unfulfilled if I'm honest. As I've got older, the idea of retraining as a barrister has become more appealing, but I am acutely aware that so many fall by the wayside. I have secured a mini-pupillage this summer, which I am extremely excited about. I am also going to apply for vacation schemes at solicitors' firms to enable me to make an informed decision.

I do have a strong academic background and an Oxbridge 2.1 - but I know that that alone will not be enough.

Am I unreasonable to take a risk (with my husband's support) and consider a career in the law? Possibly as a barrister, but I intend to research this thoroughly with some real experience in both areas and different specialisms.

In the UK to be a solicitor you study law for 3 years at univesrity, then you do the full time LPC course and then you train in a firm for 2 years. That is six years.

If you don't do a law degree then you do your first 3 year degree, then 2 years ag law school and 2 years in the firm which is 7 years or 4 depending on how you look at it. A huge amount of what you learn is by doing work. In some countries they have people up to age 30 doing totally pointless doctorates and they end up worse lawyers than the English because they don't have the practical experience younger. There is a reason the UK is one of the best countries on the planet for its lawyers.

Really? Then why do I know UK solicitors who dont have law degrees?

There is a reason the UK is one of the best countries on the planet for its lawyers.
I always thought that had more to do with the muddled common law system, rather than the excellent training... Nice to get an alternative perspective, though.

Sorry, just saw the last bit. Seems bad ot to have the law degree as a minimum. That wouldnt be accepted in my country. you would have to do the law degree even with another degree.

I must correct myself. i just checked and we now have a graduate entry degree where those with another degree can enter. The course is still 3 years though. The bachelors degree in law is 4 years.

then of course there is all the stuff postgrad as mentioned by all above

Big ask that.

The system in Scotland is very different to that in England. Although it is possible for people to do the Law Society of Scotland exams it is quite unusual to find someone that has. Everyone else has a law degree and a diploma in legal practice. This is then followed by a two year traineeship.

princessglitter I'll ask it again: what is it about the law which attracts you?

I am articulate, analytical and enjoy solving problems. I enjoy getting to grips with a problem, especially ones that don't have a clear answer. I like the fact that laws can be interpreted in different ways and they often only really become concrete in practice. Although I know there would be lots of the mundane (as in any job) in law you can really be at the cutting edge of how our society works, setting a precedent for decisions which will influence how our legal system works later on.

Law is living, like a language and I love the idea that as our society is changing the law has to be elastic and change with it.

I am fascinated by the history of laws within society and how sometimes laws can seem to be at odds with our civil liberties(e.g. in the instance of keeping us safe from the threat of terrorism) and the ethical dilemmas that surround those decisions.

Criminal and family law appeal at the moment because I am interested in the power that the law has to shape people's immediate lives and I think it would be interesting to be part of that and to be able to assist people during a confusing and difficult time. I would enjoy being the person who could offer some clarity to someone in a difficult situation and to be able to use the law and my interpretation of it to make a difference.

Although I know there would be lots of the mundane (as in any job) in law you can really be at the cutting edge of how our society works, setting a precedent for decisions which will influence how our legal system works later on.

Not unless you intend to end up as a Court of Appeal judge you can't.

Basically to earn the kind of money that would make all the sacrifices for you worthwhile you would need to go into corporate, and based on what you say, you would actually hate it (the only precedents you'd be near in is the copy and pastes you'd be doing from precedent bibles) and want out again PDQ.

But financial rewards are not the only reward.

I am 10+ years call and I do love my job in a fairly niche area, although probably 65% of my time is spent travelling. I do not rely on legal aid work which is a bonus and I think I earn really decent money.

I have loads of time off, which mostly is not by choice - it can be the sort of profession where one week you are manic and put in 80 hours and the next week you are dead as cases have collapsed and you earn nothing. It particularly sucks if you have paid in excess of £100 in a day for childcare only to find you don't need it because you have no work on.

I have children, and whilst my work life balance is brilliant it is because I have a great partner who takes time off/flexiworking when I cannot be there to do it. If my partner did not do that, I think it would be one of the worst jobs in the world. Some of my colleagues in family law tell me that they often do not leave court until 8pm and many judges (often women) pay no regard to their pleas of needing to get home for childcare after the nanny clocks off at 6pm for example.

In my experience, very few can earn £250+ . Many silks don't earn that. Most people in my chambers (decent provincal set) earn £80-150K gross before very high expenses.

So - yes it can be a great job, with good rewards. But - the profession is in turmoil. I fear many chambers will fold over the next few years as a consequence of cuts. Many people will leave the profession and don't be so sure that there will be work to mop up.

Good luck whatever you decide.

I know it's not a great time for public sector jobs, but have you looked into law career opportunities (and indeed opportunities as a non lawyer) in government? Various sections of govt will even take on trainee lawyers. They are also more likely to be more open to someone who has previous experience/doesn't fit the usual trainee mould.

The hours and flexibility will be so much better, which would offset a lot of the negatives you've heard on this thread.

Also, a lot of the things you've said will not apply to a career as a civil lawyer in private practice (barrister or solicitor) but could to a GLS, Law Commission or Treasury Solicitor job (for example) - especially re shaping the law.

Really worth a look.

I will do that minipie - that sounds like it might suit me. I am not motivated by money really - the financial rewards would be nice - but I would be happy with a career that I really enjoyed.

No money is not the only reward but that warm fuzzy glow you occasionally get when you have 1) done a fantastic job and 2) the client actually appreciates it (number 1 happens plenty, number 2 not so much) isn't going to pay the gas bill. You already have a well paid job with fantastic flexibility.

Do an OU course or something if you are feeling unchallenged, but don't become a lawyer. Your laudable ideas about the profession are a touch naive, I'm sorry but they are. Law isn't an academic discipline; it's a business.

I don't expect it all to be wonderful, God knows teaching isn't...But if I'm being asked why I want to do this, I'm going to accentuate the positives.

The GLS actually looks really interesting. I like the idea of straddling politics and law.

I would find on OU course pointless if I wasn't going to apply it practically in some way.

I don't think there is any reason I could give that would satisfy everyone on here tbh. I just have to please myself :)

I really appreciate all the comments - particularly about the state of flux the Bar seems to be in at the moment. I do owe it to myself to investigate other options, but I'm not silly enough to disregard some of the very good advice here :)

Work experience really is your friend. I think the reality of family and criminal work is a long long way from feeling like you're making a difference in people's lives, although to be fair I don't do either of those areas...

I won't comment about life at the Bar as I have no knowledge of it, but as a solicitor 99% of my job is about earning money for the firm, not seeking justice or trying to find the answer to thorny legal problems. The commercial answer is often very different from the 'real' technical answer.

It is better at the biggest and most prestigious firms in the sense that clients tend to pay their bills without arguing about them, so it is easier to do a good job and spend the time needed to look at an issue properly, plus your technical knowledge and skill is (in my experience) more valued in that sort of environment - probably because the work is more complex and of higher value, by and large.

I would think you stand a good chance of getting a training contract if you want to be a solicitor, but please do lots of work placements first. If you go into it thinking that law is anything other than a money-making business then you're kidding yourself. It's all about the fees in private practice.

Public sector law is very probably more interesting and maybe even 'rewarding' and more family-friendly, but there are fewer jobs in that sector (especially outside London).

Agree the GLS looks really good - and probably would enable you to side-step a lot of the problems usually associated with a legal career. Most (but not all) GLS jobs are in London though.

I'm a solicitor 11 years pqe in local government. I enjoy my job, it's interesting and you're on the "cutting edge" quite often because the government loves to legislate .

It is family friendly but it is NOT well paid (ever) or secure these days.

Princess, I'm very late to this but wanted to chip in. I was all set to do the conversion course and then the bar course a couple of years ago - would have been starting at 31, hopefully called at 33. I did several minis, as well as a work placement in a big City law firm to see what corporate solicitors do, and had a place at the best London school for the bar (City). I was planning to study full-time (GDL + BPTC = 2 years) and wanted to specialise in family law. My minis covered family, crime and immigration.

It's easy to get carried away in the early stages - law schools will take you for the GDL and also the BPTC if you have a 2:1 (from ANYWHERE) and can pay the fees. There is no regulation, no attempt to match the number of people qualifying as barristers with the number of pupillages available. Law schools run the course as a money-spinner. It's also quite easy to get mini-pupillages if you can write a decent cover letter, especially if you want to do them during term time, and easy to do well at them if you have done research beforehand.

In the end, I pulled out at the VERY last minute, just before term started. Tuition fees alone for the GDL and the BPTC currently stand at around £26k. Add living expenses and books, and I was looking at a £50k deficit. I would have tried to get a scholarship - even if you don't need the money, you need to win something at some point to boost your chances of getting a pupillage - but I would have been lucky to win more than a tenth of that (by the way, there is less competition for GDL scholarships - if you are really set on this, leave yourself time to apply for one - I hadn't done that!). There will be lots of other opportunities to win things later on, e.g. mooting/essay competitions etc, but it's worth thinking about. Odds of getting pupillage are very slim these days and for me it was too big a risk, even though my minis went well and all the barristers I spent time with (as well as my own barrister friends) were very encouraging and offered to help me. It's easy for other people to slap you on the back and tell you to go for it. They are not the ones taking on vast debts!

Some useful links:
Student Room law forum, lots of people freaking out about pupillages etc
blog by a lovely QC (based in Leeds, I think) who spend lots of his spare time advising aspiring barristers
official pupillage application site (like UCAS for pupillages). Useful for narrowing down chambers to approach for minis
Bar Council - pay particular attention to the careers/statistics section.

Think about how else you could get the good bits (as you see them) of life at the bar. Personally, I loved the camaraderie. After years in the corporate world, people being respectful and pleasant to each other was a breath of fresh air. Barristers are terrific fun, especially at the criminal bar - loads of sparky, funny, gossipy, clever people. I think our justice system is fascinating - as well as doing minis, I spent a fair few days watching trials from the public galleries at the Old Bailey. I would like to be part of the process, part of ensuring justice is done. But the bar is not realistic enough to be worth the enormous financial risk - not to mention the cost to my personal life. If I were 10 years younger, I'd go for it!

Princess - I am not sure it will be any easier but it sounds to me as though being a legal academic might suit you - even teaching law (at Uni level).

A couple of other comments - I did the GDL a number of years ago (in another recession when TCs were also bloody difficult to get) and I really don't think it was just cramming. You obviously need to learn cases, legislation etc and some people did only that - but there were plenty of opportunities to learn about the history of law, legal principals and similar. It was extremely hard work but I found much of it fascinating.

I also think being a good problem solver is extremely helpful at any stage of a career as a solicitor, at least for corporate clients. Business people like solutions not problems! At the risk of offending a lot of people on this thread - it's not a skill I would always associate with barristers, who ime tend to advise much more on black letter law. I do know of one excellent QC that this wouldn't apply to (and whom my clients loved) but he was pretty much an exception.

PG - several people have suggested academic law - I would caution against that. just read some of the posts on here from academics - you're be looking at 3+ years for your phd. then you'd then need to be prepared to take on temporary posts the length and breadth of the country, until getting something settled. the climate is horrendous (and, much evidence to suggest it's incredibly sexist) - and the pressure is huge. academics spend a lot of time chasing funding for research and much less than they'd like doing it. having come from my legalish background I looked into academia in quite some detail - with several years of relevant experience, graduate teaching experience, journal articles and other publications to my name, an LLM with distinction from a top-5 uni and a book offer from a publisher I thought I might be able to sneak in without a phd. not a chance. and the more I looked at the reality of academia the less I liked the sound of it.

People think criminal and family will be great and usually they are women and tjhey are the female ghetto of low pay usually. We need many more women doing decent legal areas with proper pay, not the low pay options. Dealing with criminals and people who are getting divorced or losing their chidlren is not that intellectual satisfiying and is some of the worst paid of the work. Avoid it like the plague. Go where the money is, the people are nicer and the work even more intellectually interesting. Academics make hardly anything. Do some form of business law in a firm or chambers where the best people are on £1m a year and you won't regret it.