To consider retraining as a barrister?

[princessglitter]

I am a teacher in middle management with a fairly secure, reasonably satisfying career. I have always dreamed of a career in the law. Originally I considered becoming a solicitor, doing a conversion course and going down the LPC route.

However, at the last minute, I lost my nerve and pulled out of my college course. The idea of that amount of debt was horrifying to me.

I trained as a teacher, but has always felt unfulfilled if I'm honest. As I've got older, the idea of retraining as a barrister has become more appealing, but I am acutely aware that so many fall by the wayside. I have secured a mini-pupillage this summer, which I am extremely excited about. I am also going to apply for vacation schemes at solicitors' firms to enable me to make an informed decision.

I do have a strong academic background and an Oxbridge 2.1 - but I know that that alone will not be enough.

Am I unreasonable to take a risk (with my husband's support) and consider a career in the law? Possibly as a barrister, but I intend to research this thoroughly with some real experience in both areas and different specialisms.

This reminds me of the advice I got when I wanted a cream carpet.... It is hard to swallow. However as a non practicing solicitor, who grew up on L.A Law..... I spent years at work being bored to tears and very stressed! I loved criminal law and the advocacy involved but it paid peanuts. I could not possibly meet the targets set by the partners, even if I worked 24 hours a day! Family is so draining, often miserable, bitter clients (you see them at their worse) really dragged me down! Do the pupilage. However appreciate that we are all sPeaking from experience and not trying to rain on your parade. For the record a 2.1 from oxbridge in anyone's book is a good degree.

My niece wanted to do a law degree with a view to becoming a solicitor. I love her dearly and for that reason advised her against it in the strongest terms!

princess - I don't doubt working full time, with an evening job, with 3 small children is bloody hard work. But I would have thought that in teaching the hours are at least reasonably predictable. Quite often not the case in the law, which is why, imo, so many solicitors end up jacking it in when they have kids, unless they can afford very good childcare and/or have a husband willing to take on the role of principal carer.

I'm still also not clear what about the law appeals to you? If it's the academic side, then I would say try the conversion and see how you feel after that (or as others have said try to line up a TC and get sponsorship). If it's some kind of desire to help others/see justice done etc then I think there are cheaper and more effective ways to do this. This was brought home to me when I heard Clive Stafford Smith talk about how slow law can be in terms of obtaining justice (this was in the context of Guantanamo) and that other forms of advocacy are as or or more important.

A very long time ago I got this advice.

Don't choose [x] as a career unless it absorbs you, totally. If it absorbs you, totally, then don't choose anything else.

Now [x] was not law, but the advice might still be good.

Look there are some great things about the profession - pre kids it was a lot of fun, sociable and gave me enough anecdotes to write a book. The money I earned in my early 20's was fantastic compared to my (non legal)peers. There were long lunches and boozy shopping trips when trials went short and many afternoons spent drinking (notice a theme here?!) in various establishments around chancery lane. It was exciting and interesting and I had far more responsibility than any of my (again non legal) peers.

BUT post kids it wanes, when it is Sunday lunchtime and everyone else is enjoying a family day and you have to get on with your papers; or you miss a family holiday because a juror is sick and the trial has just been extended by 5 days; or someone else has to take your toddler to hospital to have his hand stitched. Honestly it is shit. And does getting the odd afternoon off, or late start make up for all the missed events, cancelled dinners? Not a chance.

What is interesting (and should ring alarm bells for the OP) is how many of the lawyers posting on here didn't fail. They beat the odds got their TC's/pupillages and tenancies and then left the profession.

babybarrister I received a cheque from the CPS a couple of months ago for work I did in 2003 and thought that was

If it's true that most of the legal posters on here hate it, and are dropping out in their droves, surely there will be lots of room for princessgiltter at the Bar?!

Referencing poppydoolally's comments, I'm sure that with determination it is entirely possible to avoid becoming a cliche. My job is writing books, and I have written more than 50, and have 2 children under 3. I have to work every evening once they are in bed and plenty of weekends, but it's well worth the hard work to do something I enjoy, and like someone said earlier, if you are absorbed by your work you don't resent the time spent doing it.

I can't help thinking that if a man was posing this question, other men would say go for it. I know men who have converted to medicine fast track courses, one after a decade in the army and one after a Geography degree, who had to start with science A-levels before he could apply. They just got on with it. I think it's fear of rejection that holds women back, but what if you are rejected? Just move on to the next thing.

Having worked in the financial side of it i strongly advise you against becoming a barrister. I have seldom come accross ANYONE who pays on time, you could always go into public law (working for the county council as it were) and get a salary but even then you'll be lucky to get your foot in the door. If you do mainly publicly funded cases you will be running your life on your credit cards...

thequeenofdenial and babybarrister it wouldn't suprise either of you to hear I have recently paid fees for work completed in 2001 :o we didn't have to pay it because chambers had neglected to send in the fee note, but we did, as a good will gesture due to the amount we use counsel.

The ones who are enjoying it are h aving fun and not posting though. Don't be put off. I know masses of barrister who love it but they ensure they avoid female and low paid areas as most people with sense would do. Sadly women often make bad career choices. As is said above tehre are not that many careers where you can earn £500k+ £1m+ are there? You might in teachign if you set up a private network of schools and sold part of it on but it will be harder than in law.

I do agree with the comment above about doing what you love though. Most people my age (40s) who work hard and are reasonable successful tend to do it because it totally grips them. There is almost nothing (except perhaps breastfeeding and sex) Ihave liked as much as doing a lot of my work. I'd rather do it than vacuum the house or even sometimes than be with the chidlren or sit in the garden.

But Xenia, in the Op's circumstances the downsides to being a barrister are things she should take into account when deciding a) whether to retrain and b) whether to be a solicitor or a barrister. I was a barrister (now non-practising) and working as a solicitor. I do a male dominated and specialist area of law which is perfectly well paid and I combine having a job I love with a very nice life.

I even occasionally get to see my children which wouldn't have happened when I was constantly travelling - 2 hours on train, 15 minutes in county court, 1.5 hours on train 30 mins in a different county court etc.

If the Op really wants to help people with advocacy there are voluntary organisations which need help and can really make a difference. She would also probably be looking into more interesting cases. If she desperately wants a high powered, financially rewarding career, she might find being a solicitor is a better idea.

Xenia - I'd like to know how many barristers earn £500k+ Are you suggesting this is possible for OP?

The teachers' pension scheme is a very valuable commodity (albeit under threat of being devalued). Employer contributions will be to the value of 30% I expect, bringing your notional £40k up to £52k. Then add on generous holiday provision and you will be looking at a package that is very hard to achieve in the law in the provinces.

lol @ nobless - not convinced that doesn't also apply

I don't know what you can expect to earn if you do commercial work but as a senior criminal junior gross receipts of £150k would put you at the top end of the scale. Take off 35% for expenses and you have just shy of £100k.

A good salary but not one you will earn for many many years and you will work for it: every evening, every weekend, every holiday, when your kids are sick, when you are sick.

There is no maternity, holiday or sick pay, you have to worry about your pension and pay your VAT bill not to mention the aged debt you have to write off.

If you're like xenia and would rather work above all else then it is worth considering but there are easier ways of earning the salary.

I know I'm coming to this late, but I thought I'd post.

OP, I am a a barrister and I absolutely love it. It is a fabulous job. I try to work 4 days a week so that I can spend 3 days a week with my kids and being self-employed, this works well. I don't do crime or family, which needs lots of last minute work, and I honestly think that it is family-friendly!

Xenia us happy barristers DO have time to post!

Anyway but that's not all I wanted to tell you. I also sit on the Pupillage Committe in my Chambers. On Thursday and Friday last week we interviewed 15 people for 2 places as pupils (15 out of 200 applications, I should say). All 15 people were exceptional. Most had double first class degrees (not all from Oxbridge), all had done something exceptional outside the law (like working for Human Rights Commissions, the Law Commission etc) and each and every one of them had an exceptional interview persona. I honestly believe that if I was applying now, I'd never get in...

I work in central London and my chambers is particularly hard to get into (because of the specialisms we do) but I wanted to let you know how HARD it is. We are turning down exceptional people this year...

I don't want to put you off but please do this with your eyes open.

Oh and I don't earn £500k a year.

I originally trained as a barrister and now work in house as a solicitor in the City. I have always been interested in financial services and have worked in the business as well as on the legal side. Even in-house it is becoming more competitive (I'm another who probably wouldn't get in now ). Depending on the area you are in hours can be long even in-house I do work on weekends, evenings etc. I also have two kids 7 and 3. I go home at 7pm for dinner and bedtime, sort out lunches etc and quite often start work again at 9.30pm.

Having said that, I do love what I do and quite frankly if I didn't I don't think I could stick the relentless pressure (nearly always having as much or more work on your desk at the end of the day as you did at the start, impossible deadlines etc).

If you enjoy education but want to move into Law I would investigate if there is a way you can move into a practice that includes elements of education law - appeals, statements, exclusions etc. There may be a fair bit of work coming out of the development of Free Schools. I found my time in the business was a great help in my legal practice and I think your time as a teacher gives you an insight how the education system in the country functions which could be a real advantage you can build on. It may be worth exploring this option further.

Only switch to a career as either a solicitor or barrister, and especially the latter, if that is absolutely the only thing you can see yourself being happy doing.

Getting pupillage in particular is ridiculously difficult. Only 1/4 of the people who complete the BTPC will ever get pupillage. You will be competing with between 400 to 700 other people for each place.

Your credentials at present do not make you stand out from the crowd. Everyone whom I know who is doing pupillage this year has prior professional legal or political experience, and not just as a paralegal either.

If you go for it, you should have a back up plan as to what you will do if you don't get pupillage straight away. You will need to be prepared to find relevant legal work for a year or more, which is likely to be poorly paid.

You should also be prepared for the emotional slog that it will be if you do not fall within the small minority who manage to get a pupillage straight away. Just doing your best and getting the top marks is not enough. The emotional impact of still being knocked back time and time again is something that has been too much for many people I know. Then even if you do get pupillage, you still have to get tenancy. It is for good reason that pupillage is described as a year long job interview.

Aside from that, I am one of the crazy people who had decided that nothing else would make me happy, and I honestly cannot think of anything I would rather do.

She had also considered being a solicitor. Pick work you love - that is always the best advice but also consider what pays better than other areas (and I am not inventing barristers on £500k - £1m a year before tax and after expenses etc - they exist). Any of us, particularly women, can seek to be the best at what we do in the UK and if we are very good we get paid well. If we are useless we don't earn much.

No one is saying it is easy. It is easier to get a job as a teacher than a training contract or pupillage in places where those at the top earn £1m. It certainly was never easy and still isn't which is just as well as you only want the best people. Same with medicine. If anyione with 2 GCSEs could train to be a doctor we might get a few botched operations. The fact it's hard is a good not a bad thing and I see that from all sides both at my age (40s) and with 3 graduate stage children.

porcupine I post and lurk on a board for legal bods where the majority of posters are men and so I can say with absolute certainty, because I have seen it there over and over again, that if a man posted a similar OP on a board largely populated by men they absolutely would get the same response.

Xenia saying you would rather work than do the hoovering isn't much of recommendation.

Been in th game for 20 years
2.1 from Oxford not that unusual in the law, 4 As at A level prett ystandard. really not a job to start when yuo are 30odd wiht kids, great fun for years, best fun ever really but also v stressful, not as well paid as yuo might suppose, can get back stabbing colleagues, but overall I love it.
Now p/t workign in the law, still lowve it, love the intellectual rigour etc. BUT can only do as taken v .low paid, low stress version of legal work.
Would not dream of going to Bar unless yuo have exceptional stamina and self belief, can be a hard road, with long long huors and difficult judges, need resilience etc. Would advise not to go to Bar, too hard to get pupillage etc