To consider retraining as a barrister?

[princessglitter]

I am a teacher in middle management with a fairly secure, reasonably satisfying career. I have always dreamed of a career in the law. Originally I considered becoming a solicitor, doing a conversion course and going down the LPC route.

However, at the last minute, I lost my nerve and pulled out of my college course. The idea of that amount of debt was horrifying to me.

I trained as a teacher, but has always felt unfulfilled if I'm honest. As I've got older, the idea of retraining as a barrister has become more appealing, but I am acutely aware that so many fall by the wayside. I have secured a mini-pupillage this summer, which I am extremely excited about. I am also going to apply for vacation schemes at solicitors' firms to enable me to make an informed decision.

I do have a strong academic background and an Oxbridge 2.1 - but I know that that alone will not be enough.

Am I unreasonable to take a risk (with my husband's support) and consider a career in the law? Possibly as a barrister, but I intend to research this thoroughly with some real experience in both areas and different specialisms.

denning - more likely crazy than doable, unfortunately.
I have impression that OP was/is well aware of this, but it's worth pointing out that colleges running conversion and vocational courses accept many, many students who have barely an ice cube's chance in hell of getting anywhere near pupillage/TC.
There are many, many reasons for this, IMO - but it seems fairly clear that the result is that whilst there may appear to be increasing access to legal professions, the bar ('scuse the pun) has actually been raised quite a bit higher in terms of whom chambers/firms are willing to consider.

High 2.1 not an urh 2.1 obviously!

Don't go into it for the money anyway, most barristers would give their right arm for a salary like yours. I know Barristers and Solicitors who lament about calculating their earnings verus their childminder's earnings and realising that their childminder has much more money at the end of the week than them.

'but it's worth pointing out that colleges running conversion and vocational courses accept many, many students who have barely an ice cube's chance in hell of getting anywhere near pupillage/TC.' Strangely, this actually makes me feel slightly less pessimistic about my chances. The statistics look fairly bleak, but some of those statistics are those who should never have been accepted on to those courses in the first instance. Essentially the course providers are money making institutions.

I like to think my qualified friends would find a nice way of telling me if I didn't stand a chance.

I know it would be a long time before I saw anywhere near 40k again (if ever). I also know I would have to sacrifice time with my dcs.

I intend to do some volunteering work this year, hopefully something legally related. Maybe I could learn to play the violin with just my toes while I'm at it

All your comments are much appreciated.

After all these comments I am seriously thinking about becoming a solicitor.

Did you not read my comment on page one? Do you honestly think it's any easier. The firm I am at is a medium sized, top 100 firm, good reputation, etc. It's no Linklaters, Eversheds etc. But TC interviews are coming around again, it's September soon and we have a box of about 500 applications for 7 places. Two of our paralegals are doing well and will probably get TC's so that elaves 5 places for the externals. Your Oxbridge 2:1 just might not be good enough considering those odds and given that we have SO many CV's from Oxbrdige, LSE, et al with 1st classes and oodles of work expereince. Also we pay trainees £20k and NQ's £30k.

With those odds and wages, still want to give up your satisfying £40k career for this?

OP - I agree! (Also, obv, not many bursaries awarded to profit fodder students...) Good luck!

If you are on 40k in the NW as you have stated, if you enjoy teaching I would probably just stick with it and enjoy the certainty of the hours and holidays tbh.

You mentioned considering the solicitor route and I do think this is a better idea than becoming a barrister, but the money in the north is unlikely to be great. It's quite possible that you would start your training contract on the law soc minimum (about 16k I think?), especially if you want to go into family, crime, general high street practice. Commercial law is generally a lot better paid, but the highest paying firms are all in London. The biggest and top paying firms in the North like DLA Piper, Addleshaw Goddard, Cobbetts etc will start you on about 25k going up to about 35k on qualification, slowly increasing each year. This would be financially worthwhile as you would end up beating your teaching salary, but the hours would be worse. If you decide to try for a firm like this then you should definitely make sure you apply for the TC well in advance (you would be looking at applying in the next round opening around Oct 2011 for TCs starting in Sept 2014). These big firms will fund your course and often give you a maintainence grant. The smaller firms are unlikely to fund but some can give you a loan for the costs of the fees, which is repaid out of your salary when you start. Note that sometimes the funding is only available if you get the TC before embarking on the course, so it might be worthwhile applying for some to test the water before embarking on your GDL.

I do think that, although the competition is fierce, training contracts are easier to get than pupillage as there are so many more available. I went through the application process not too long ago myself, got loads of interviews for top City firms and accepted a very good TC. I know plenty of people who are struggling but there are training contracts out there for those who are able, committed and have a little bit of luck!

Princessglitter I don't know if you saw my comment earlier in the thread about volunteering, but I recommend the Free Representation Unit. You can train as either an employment or social security representation and do some advocacy before tribunals. It would be useful experience for you and looks very good on applications.

The Citizens Advice Bureau is also good place to start as you should have a local one and they would probably be happy to have you for a few hours a week. CAB is particularly good if you want to go into family, highstreet work etc.

*representative not representation

There could not be a worse time to consider becoming a barrister to be honest.

The profession is in turmoil given the savage cuts to 'legal aid'. Whilst mini-pupillages are on offer very few chambers are offering proper pupillages and competition for the few that exist is fierce.

Chambers expenses (the amount you need to pay out of your earnings to keep your chambers going) are increasing yet fees are going down - even clients with agreed tender rates are calling chambers and saying reduce fees by 10% or we'll take our work elsewhere. Barristers have no choice too say yes. There is little/no loyalty between clients and barristers, everyone wants the cheapest deal.

There are few professions where earnings have stayed the same or decreased for 20 years!

I love my job, and because of the work life balance I have I wouldn't change it for the world, but many of my colleagues would jump without blinking at a salary of £40K plus pension and holidays and fab maternity policy.

However there is no way I would now get into what would probably = £20K worth of debt re-training when the chance of pupillage is not much better than winning the lottery, even with a strong 2:1 from Oxford/Cambridge, and at a time when brief fees for baby barristers make it difficult to earn a living wage.

Sorry to be so honest. If you have a burning ambition to be an advocate,why not consider voluntary work for CAB, or how about considering becoming a magistrate instead?

Thanks for the advice - this is something I will need to consider carefully. I am under no illusions that getting a TC or pupillage would be easy, but I am willing to gain lots of work experience/voluntary work.

Actually part-time working in criminal defence is very attractive to employers - each solicitor after passing their duty exams entitles them to claim slots at PolIce stations and courts - so the more solicitors firms have, the greater the number of slots. Firms would go bankrupt without the slots. I get the same number of slots as the full timers yet my employer pays me for only three fifths of the time (I do three days a week). So makes great financial sense for firms to have part-timers, if you see what I mean. I think my boss dreading the day I approach him to go full time after the kiddies go to school, hee hee!

Please be careful!

DH had stellar career in management trouble-shooting, but it took him all over the place. To get family stability, he decided to be barrister. He got really good results in all his exams and had excellent references but could not find pupillage.

Main reason was he was too old (40): Chambers only take on a few pupils - even the biggest will take a max of 5 - so their scope for taking a risk is very small. Many are willing to take on one high risk pupil (and a 40-year old career shifter is high risk), but would prefer to place that risk somewhere that is actually counted (ethnic / disabled / clear social disavantage etc). I'd do the same if I was them, but sorry for DH.

Point is, OP, he is now a primary teacher. He loves it and takes the view that no-one should be allowed to teach until they are 40 and have been through at least one other career!

Mmmmm my my my you lot aren't very complimentary about a career at the bar are you!

For what it's worth I am only 18m post-pupillage (6m of those on mat leave!) and earn A LOT. Other guy in chambers same call is set to bill £180k this year (he received £24k last MONTH). Difficult to earn a living wage???! I think not!

I didn't go to Oxbridge, got a low 2.1 and no-one is my family was/is a professional.

And for those who said a career at the bar isn't family friendly - rubbish. You won't FIND a career more compatible with having babies. You are self-employed, you can do whatever the hell you like. You finish at midday? You go home. You're not in court? You spend the day with your LO. Most chmabers now have mat leave policies (usually rent-free periods) and I couldn't praise my clerks highly enough when it comes to working cases around me looking after my baby. I work part-time now, with no arguments from chambers.

Go for it. It is hard and it is competitive but it is so so worth it :)

As proud says if you are good then the firms (if you go the solicitor route) pay all those costs. You have to apply in advance and don't do the GDL and LPC until you have your training contract in place. If you aren't good enoguh to get one then that's a good indicator you should not bother with the course. The pay though is better in London and it is always great when men follow women's careers so you might even find it worthwhile moving to London.

i really hope you go for it. am hoping to become brave enough to do fast track medicine one of these days! also have an oxbridge 2:1 and a secret ambition that i should have considered more carefully back at sixth form stage... i think i'm early preg with dc3 so a while to go to get to the stage of actioning my plan. i have a relative who trained as a doctor aged 55 though (and went down the psych route which takes ages) so never too late. i'm sure your first clients will be utterly relieved to see a mid-30s former teacher turn up to take on their case, rather than a baby-faced 22 year old!

Well I might score points for ethnicity then, Milliemae.

Thanks Table Vam - good to hear a positive too :)

*Vamp (sticky p on laptop!)

..and watch the reverse age-discrimination please

As a 15 yr PQE solicitor, I would advise you against it.

From the solicitor side of the fence, getting a TC is extraordinarily difficult in the current climate. And even if you do, good jobs as a NQ solicitor (if the firm you trained with can't keep you on) are hard to come by - I used to work at a firm with over 30 fee earners. Only 2 of us were solicitors. The reason being even the most junior solicitor was looking for £25k+, plus the cost of paying for their practising cert, CPD requirements, etc, whereas the paralegals who had several years experience were all earning iro £16k....if firms can employ paralegals (mostly law grads with LPC who couldn't get a TC) much more cheaply to do the same job, why bother with a solicitor?

As for the bar, it is very much NOT a 9-5 job, you can be sent to any court in a fairly large geographical area - and even if your brief includes travel expenses it usually won't include anything for your travelling time, plus you don't have a regular, guaranteed income. I know barristers whose clerks are still chasing fees from 2 or 3 years ago. It's possible to make a huge amount of money at the bar, but there are a lot of barristers scraping by on fees that would equate to a lot less than minimum wage for the number of hours they put in....

I have 2 DC, and under no circumstances would I advise either of them to enter the legal profession.

No problem princess :)

TableVamp - I am being nosey curious. What area do you specialise in?

No crime. No family. No immigration. Everything else.

thks... curiosity satisfied...

Thanks porcupine - hope you fulfil your ambitions.

Would consider a move to London, Xenia, but dh's job covers the NW so it would be a drastic move. We can live anywhere in the NW though, without too much disruption.

Am very ambitious and feel a need to be highly successful at whatever I do. Without career fulfilment I become too obsessed with trying to mould my children into perfect little beings, which can't be good...