To consider retraining as a barrister?

[princessglitter]

I am a teacher in middle management with a fairly secure, reasonably satisfying career. I have always dreamed of a career in the law. Originally I considered becoming a solicitor, doing a conversion course and going down the LPC route.

However, at the last minute, I lost my nerve and pulled out of my college course. The idea of that amount of debt was horrifying to me.

I trained as a teacher, but has always felt unfulfilled if I'm honest. As I've got older, the idea of retraining as a barrister has become more appealing, but I am acutely aware that so many fall by the wayside. I have secured a mini-pupillage this summer, which I am extremely excited about. I am also going to apply for vacation schemes at solicitors' firms to enable me to make an informed decision.

I do have a strong academic background and an Oxbridge 2.1 - but I know that that alone will not be enough.

Am I unreasonable to take a risk (with my husband's support) and consider a career in the law? Possibly as a barrister, but I intend to research this thoroughly with some real experience in both areas and different specialisms.

The course I want to do is flexible, over 18 months, so I could fit studying around childcare. I am aware that it will be intense but I am very conscientious and think I can manage it. I could then make an informed decision about whether I wanted to become a barrister or solicitor.

I am not patting myself on the back for getting a mini pupillage - I am fully aware that these are relatively easy to get, where actually getting a pupillage is incredibly difficult. I am not deluded.

Gosh, I wish I could say go for it whole heartedly but so many of the posts on here resonate with such clarity.....

What I will do is to ask you whether you ultimately need to make a living at the law and, if so, to what extent? And if you didn't make it as a solicitor or barrister, would you be prepared to paralegal instead (where you'd be lucky to get £30K in London - somewhat less in the NW I should think)? Or would you go back to teaching? Would that mean going back to the bottom of the pay/qualification scale?

These are questions I've asked myself as I prepare to leave a reasonably well paid job in the law to follow my dream in something else entirely. I may not make it but I blimmin' well want to know I tried.

I'm a barrister, btw - non-practising now - who works in the Magic Circle. The Bar lost its gloss for me early on, mostly due to the crippling financial realities. And now, almost 13 years after Call, I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of my BVC friends who are actually practising (I want to say still practising but so many never made it in the first place....)

Anyway, whatever you decide, good luck. I really do understand what it's like to have a dream you want to chase.

Lots of these horror stories seem to relate to the publicly funded bar which, yes is hard work, poorly paid and in absolute turmoil at the moment. But even in the regions there are decent, for example, family law and other civil sets that do enough private work to be relatively unscathed by legal aid cuts. Do the mini pupillage, but before you commit to the CPE, do your research on whether there are going to be reasonable employment prospects where you live.

A key question here is what your partner does. If he is fairly 9
-5 then he can pick up the pieces of family life. that's how things work for most people in my husband's chambers. I even know barristers married to barristers, with children, who manage to make things work. But they all do private civil work.

Also, this stuff about playing banjo with your feet is nonsense. To get pupillage you need to be really pleasant (if they take you on, it's normally for life) a great advocate and very persuasive about why you are perfect for whatever area of law it is. Don't forget being a teacher will give you fantastic experience of dealing with difficult people which will be extremely useful.

I'm on 40K at the moment, long holidays, relatively family friendly hours. can see why you might think I was mad. I wouldn't go back to the bottom of the payscale if I went back to teaching, but as I am expensive I might struggle to find a job. I would be unlikely to get one with management responsibility if I had a few years out of teaching.

As my dh works from home and is semi-self employed he does have some flexibility and can certainly manage school drop offs. We have willing gps who can collect dcs from school and feed then until dh finishes.

I don't play banjo with my feet or anything spectacular of that ilk, but I do think teaching has given me many transferable skills.

I'd stay away from law.

I went down the conversion route and even have my LPC.

I work in minimum wage admin in a government office. Nothing to do with the law at all.

If you're not well connected you won't make.

them not then.

*make it.

I do have a few ex University contacts who are successful solicitors/barristers. They have offered me some good advice about the whole process.

I'm near retirement and "if I had to choose again" as the old saying goes, fascinating as the law is as a discipline I wouldn't choose to make a living in it. Honest I wouldn't.

Don't dismiss the public sector. Government legal work is really interesting and much more family friendly than private practice or the Bar, and they take on both trainee solicitors and pupil barristers.

Hmm, lots to think about. Thank you.

Obviously my comment about playing the sax with your feet was a (little) tongue in cheek but I have sat on the pupillage committee and all the hundreds of candidates I would see had

• a first or 2(i), from a good uni
• demonstrated their commitment to the bar by doing numerous mini p's in variety of sets, work experience at sols firm/govt dept and/or marshalling
• wide range of "stand out" and/or notable skills/talents/experiences
• volunteered in variety of settings FRU/Amnesty etc
• many were mature candidates who had come from other professional backgrounds with all the associated life skills that goes with that.

You have to be an exceptionally oustanding person to get noticed and thereafter you have to be the right balance of driven (to suceed), laid back (to get on with other tenants-it is a career long commitment to a chambers usually) and charming (to impress clients/instructing sols).

OP you may be all of those things, in spades, but you need to recognise how difficult getting that tenency can be and understand that this day and age that is only the very begining.

Incidentally I know 3 sucessful barristers who retrained as teachers - go figure

I wouldn't advise it. As others have said, there are too few jobs out there for those that are qualified, and the situation is only getting worse year on year. I was a qualified solicitor in Scotland, moved to London to be with dh, went through the GDL just as the economic shit hit the fan, and got no offers whatsoever from firms despite my previous, and at that point current, impressive academics and experience. I therefore cut my losses and refused to shell out another £10k+ with no firm job prospects in sight. I now work for a major us investment bank in trade control, and it's the best thing that could have happened, given the circumstances, but I was very lucky and landed on my feet. I equally know of people who have my background who can get any job: overqualified for the vast majority, and underqualified for what they want to do, as there are solicitors with years of experience taking the bottom of the rung jobs.

Also, although the skills are highly transferable, they don't make you any more desirable in the current economic climate, I'm afraid.

can't get any job

Getting a training contract at a good firm is no easier than getting pupillage. I know loads of people who have done the LPC but didn't translate that into a training contract. It seems a lot of money to pay to end up with being a paralegal - something you could do with a law degree or a masters.

If you have lots of qualified friends advising you then I'd ask them whether they would offer you a training contract. The competition is fierce and the standard is incredibly high.

I'm giving private practice as a solicitor another six years or so, and if I haven't made then if I haven't made salaried partner at my current firm I hope to become a Deputy District Judge. The alternative business structure changes coming into the profession (massive deregulation of who can provide legal services) is going to make private practice very different and difficult for a lot of smaller firms. I think my firm will be fine, but I wish I had a crystal ball. I may well be working for Tesco Law in a call centre in 2 years, a most depressing thought.

Do think about this very carefully, and make sure that you go in with your eyes fully open as to what a career in the law entails. I ended up walking away from a very good job as a solicitor. I just couldn't make it work as a part-time job, or fit in with the lifestyle I wanted for my children and myself. I appreciate that this is a personal decision, but, in corporate law in particular, it's a very competitive and highly pressured environment. You would be lucky to find a job that you could simply walk away from at a set time each evening (I regularly got "stuck" in the office until midnight, missing bedtime). There are lots of people in these jobs who are prepared to (or who have to) prioritise work over family a lot of the time. It wasn't for me. I really don't want to sound patronising, but I think that working as a solicitor in private practice is culturally very different from working in the public sector (which I fully appreciate comes with its own demands and pressures). I loved my job as a solicitor pre-children - it was challenging and rewarding, and for 8 years I found it completely fulfilling. For the year I worked post-children, however, I just found it exhausting, and I had a promoted post so was able to delegate quite a bit to junior lawyers and manage my own workload. But if you do decide to go for it, best of luck - it's a great, if all-consuming, career for the right person!

Namechanged - what if you have a high 2:1 Law degree from a rather looked down upon University. Grown up children and 10 years as a Magistrate. A secret desire and longing to be a DJ but to practice as a Barrister first.

Crazy? Or doable?

Talk to the chambers you would approach now, before you even apply for BVC (actually is your law degree "stale" after 7 years? You may have to do the CPE as well) Denning and see what kind of response you get. So much of it comes down to luck/personality/knowing the right person it could be a piece of cake or impossible.

denning, honestly I think you would struggle. Criminal practitioners tend (rightly or wrongly) to have very low opinions of lay mags and so it wouldn't necessarily work in your favour.

Many chambers only accept pupils through the old OLPAS, now pupillage portal system which was designed to stamp out nepotism so be aware whether the chambers that you might approach are part of that system or not - if they are an approach would be considered quite bad form.

Have to complete lpc within 7 years of completing gdl/law degree. I know, I'm up against it at the moment (hence continuing despite the withdrawal of funding).

OP, you don't have to decide which route to go down until you're halfway through the gdl if you do it part time so this isn't a decision you need to worry about now. Sounds like you have the childcare sorted as well.

One final thing to consider: are you aware how much your salary is going yo drop? It's going to be a longtime until you're near 40k again (if ever) if you go into crime and family and you'll be doing longer hours (certainly when holiday is considered and probably even ignoring that). I don't know about the bar, but if you were lucky enough to secure a training contract in the areas you're talking about you'd be starting on around 14k maybe going up to 20ish on qualification. Yes you can be earning decent money if you make partner but it'd be on a par with being a head teacher I think.

You're the same age as me. Try, you can always go back to teaching, but please please please stay away from the career development loans!

Also, Denning, it's either a 2.1 or it's not. There's no qualfication that's a 'ugh 2.1'. Sorry to be brutal but a high 2.1 is not thought of as 'nearly a first' by anyone but the people with high 2.1s!

I would err on the side of caution as well - I am a Solicitor in family law. I completed my Degree with a 2:1, LPC with a commendation, I had management experience as well as paralegal experience and i still spent years trying to get a training contract. I got one eventually.

I love my job and I have found the 2 firms I worked for since qualifying 7 years ago extremely family friendly - the first one let me come back after maternity leave and work part time - at one point i was working about 15 hours a week and they were fine.

I have just returned after 4 years off to a different firm - they offered me a part time position and have been very very supportive. So not all firms are unfamily friendly.

But i know there is an awful lot of competition for jobs out there and the competition for training contracts was immense and that was 9 years ago.

On the plus side I do an awful lot of advocacy and I could probably do more if i pushed myself for it.