AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as [2]

[garlicnutter]

... not a feminist?

Since I killed the old one.

Oh god. I'll spell it out (again) in hopes of movement and moving on.

Dittany, your approach makes lots of posters feel cowed and bullied. That is what is being shouted from the rooftops. I can't believe you want this. You may not think it is what you are doing, you may not intend it, but it is what they are feeling. As so many people are saying the same thing, do you not feel it is worth a moment's thought?

Forgetting it's me that's posted, forgetting everything else, just think about that one thing, with an open and honest heart.

I have no agenda or grudge other than to make women not scared of other women in the name of doctrine.

Good question TAB. I have also wanted to know what people are actually doing to further the aims of feminism, not just on MN but generally. Is it more than talking to each other? What are the aims? Do you even have a plan or is the whole movement at odds about what exactly should be done because they all hold different opinions?

Or at least I don't agree with your premise that what you say is happening is actually happening

There are 1829 posts on the subject and mostly they are saying that they feel bullied, ridiculed and intimidated -and yet they are still being told there isn't a problem!.

Omigawd's post of 16.55 yesterday seemed to sum it up perfectly.Not everyone agrees, but I would say a significant majority do. (I thought it an excellent post and it seemed to get everything off on a much more lighthearted mood).

'I think you bear grudges dittany and personally attack and insult and belittle people who disagreed with you once somewhere'

I don't think that is true. I don't think dittany does bear grudges. She is very forthright on threads if she disagrees with someone, and has said that she can be abrasive, but it is all forgotten on the next thread and is not personal. dittany says it as she sees it, she doesn't store it up and let it come out at a later stage.

But there seems to be people who have received 'kickings' and 'maulings' who do seem to bear grudges and store it up for later use. If you have felt like this for a long time, Leningrad, then it would be better to challenge it on a thread at the time rather than sitting on it and bringing it up months later.

There are 1829 posts on the subject and mostly they are saying that they feel bullied, ridiculed and intimidated -and yet they are still being told there isn't a problem!.

Yes, and of those posts there are far too many targetting dittany (you may not name her but my preschooler could work it out). That is a sustained attempt at bullying.

If you have a problem with dittany's posting style and think she is bullying you, deal with it properly by reporting it.

dittany is ONE poster in the feminist section - she is hardly getting everyone to gang up on people the way this thread has targetted her.

"i get the sense that these are the people who can't swim in the world of nearer equality where you actually have to win a partner with your personality and attributes and make a real connection rather than a situation where every woman needs to get married and has to pick someone so standards and expectations of men were less. likewise where there is more competition in the workplace and they need someone to blame for being failures romantically and career wise. "

Well yes. Exactly.

exotic - I have to disagree. That post of omigawds was a nasty peevish little attack. And a lot of posters disagreed with her. It simply summed up the anti-feminist position in aggressive language. FFS can't we do without the 'feminista' label?

I am a bit uneasy about naming names. One would hope that the person or people in question would recognise themselves but maybe that was unrealistic - 1900 posts would say it probably was.

Sunshineandbooks - it isn't out and out bullying that you can call somebody on - often it is a tone that patronises and belittles that you can't quite put your finger on. It isn't something that can be reported. Half the time it is a feeling of unease and confusion about what actually happened. I tried to explain many hundreds of posts ago and some people got it. Some don't. I don't think it is exclusive to Dittany either.

Now it might make me a weak and feeble to feel that way but I don't think I am - I can usually hold my own if there isn't some subtext going on that I don't understand.

Anyway, I'm beginning to feel sorry for Dittany now although I am pretty sure she doesn't want my sympathy.

Actually, I think it was wrong to target Dittany personally like this. Especially as she wasn't around at the time, and has obviously come on here to defend herself.

Giving a few examples would be one things. Pulling up a quote is one things. But looking up it's just a wine about dittany in particular.

Have a good look around MN, there's loads of people arguing constantly. Many stand there ground and have no interest in changing their stance. So it's not actually limited to the feminisn boards, it's all over the place. People force their opinions at others posters all the time.

Christ alive, there seems to be a determination by some to portray this whole thread as being personal.

I have contributed and for me it is not personal -never has been.

Sweeping up the fact that many women who would like to engage within the feminism section but feel uncomfortable about that as if it is just the manipulations of a few posters with a personal grudge is bollocks.

If the stalwarts (for want of a better word) are completely comfortable with the knowledge that a perception exists that mainstream mumstnetters are unwelcome then great.
I would like to think that the feminism board would be both more interesting and more useful were it's numbers to swell but maybe I am wrong in that.

But I learnt a long time ago that if someone says to me
" I feel x"
It is better to say
" I don't mean you to feel x - how can we sort this out"
Rather than saying
" no. You don't feel x and if you do you are either wrong or being a shit stirrer"

I still think that there are two views of the feminism section. Some see it as a section where like minded people can meet and support each other regarding the issues upon which they agree. Others simply see it as a section like any other which gives a broad heading to the issues discussed therein.

Maybe a radical feminist group in off the beaten track would be an idea. It would feel safer and be less open to trolling?

I use the sn section. I understand how difficult it is when you have a shared situation and feel exposed on the main board. I also understand how easy it is to be offended and feel attacked by questions and views which are ill thought out or half formed rather than by bigots or fools. I think there is an element if that going on here.

I know that dittany has posted a lot, but I can't think of an occasion when she has upset me.
Whether you agree or not with Omigawd's post it has to be acknowledged that people get upset on feminist threads. There are some that I know that I will have arguments but it is only when I see that it is a feminist thread that I will avoid reading and keep off in future-it isn't worth the aggro.
Bullies are well know for saying-I don't see the problem! Nearly 2000 posts tell you there is a problem!