AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as [2]

[garlicnutter]

... not a feminist?

Since I killed the old one.

I know this thread is partly about feminism and partly about the feminist section/certain posters on Mumsnet. I'm not really qualified to comment on the latter, and can't be bothered to refute idiotic suggestions that I am a 'Class 1 misogynist' (would be a good t-shirt though, along with the 'Patriarchy-Schmatriarchy'). I just hope the thread stays balanced, reasonable and interesting and doesn't become all about one person.

No. I'm old and grey. I seek love, not war.

I am sorely, sorely tempted to do a limerick tho. Dittany rhymes rahter wondrously with litany.

and epiphany................

Oooo yes..

Dittany,

When you wrote "Hully, this isn't a lovely chit chat, this is a slagging off of the Feminist section and certain members of it (naming no names)", I suppose you weren't separating criticism of your views from criticism of you.

If you describe someone's views as misogynistic, surely you're describing the person who holds those views as a misogynist.

"I'm not a racist, I just don't like blacks"

Mitten-y, though I have no idea what that might mean But mittens are nice. dittany could be more mitteny. Or kitteny. Sorry you probably already had that one.

dittany-bashing?

Really?

Wow.

" "frustrated witches coven"

Is this an example of the sort of nice patient civilised posts that feminists should be making, in order to win friends an influence people?"

No, its an example of taking the p*ss - and it came with a :o

Have a Daisy Chain :)

See, I said it was humpourous.

Dittany - might be a good time to let you know that you open peoples' eyes - you've opened mine. And I wouldn't be surprised if thousands tune in to read your arguments. They're inspiring!

you have something on your nose, Animation.

Did I come across too ingratiating there.

MarySue - The emphasis must be on encouraging people to leave violent relationships.

I disagree. IMO the emphasis should be on getting people to stop being violent in the first place.

But I am leaving this thread now because it has got deeply unpleasant. I think it is fair enough to talk in general terms about why people feel uncomfortable on the feminist section and I have tried to engage with that, pointing out our own shortcoming where I see them, but this has now become a sustained personal attack on dittany which I cannot ignore so I no longer wish to be a part of this thread.

Thank you to all of you - on both sides of the debate - who have contributed useful, thought-provoking posts.

"And there is a big difference between a view expressed being called misogynist and the person who posted being called a misogynist."

This - "If you describe someone's views as misogynistic, surely you're describing the person who holds those views as a misogynist. "I'm not a racist, I just don't like blacks"

More importantly, as I said - say calmly that the suggestion (in my post, which I repeated but distanced myself from carefully) is/could be considered misogynist. Not act how dittany acted to me in that thread, or here. I suppose it depends if you are looking for respect or a fight.

I'm going to summarise the issues and give some responses:

1. People don't like the feminist section because they believe in egalitarianism and want to discuss how the rights of different people interact, rather than focus on women. I agree that it is incredibly important and a major issue in our society. Some of you are clearly believers or activists in this area. It seems odd that you don't have a section on this, or even the occasional thread. There do seem to be frequent threads on MN about poverty, race, gender, sexual orientation and disability where the most terrible remarks are made and there seems to be very little support for those groups other than that which comes from the same few people. This seems particularly the case with disability and special needs, so I do think this whole egalitarianism issue could do with a lot of discussion.

1. The feminist section doesn't give out enough information for people who don't know about feminism. The only solution I can see to that is a feminist 101 list.

1. The feminist section is too academic/expert and assumes people are ignorant. This is often said when people suggest links, or book recommendations. It is hard to give out enough information as people are requesting when doing so results in a criticism that you are patronising people/suggesting they are ignorant. The only way around this is to have a set of links to information that is at a very basic level.

1. The feminist section does not base its arguments in the law, reason and expertise. Okay, well, that's going to be hard to do if when we link to examples of the law or policy we are accused of making out that other people are ignorant or that we are patronising them.

1. The feminist section has a party line, governed by bullies, that you can't deviate from. It is hard to answer that question without naming names. I have been named along with Dittany and Sakura, and yet I have had huge disagreements with both of them on at least 3 of the major issues mentioned on this thread, yet I still post on the feminist section without feeling bullied. It also seems hard to understand how we can all be bullying you for your beliefs not toeing the party line when we are in disagreement with each other.

1. Feminists say terrible things which offend you. Many of the supposedly feminist remarks made on this thread and other threads as examples of this are actually anti-feminist remarks that were challenged by regular posters. So we are being held responsible for everything ever said on the section and yet at the same time you want us all not to criticise people who come on and say things we don't like. I cannot think of a solution to that.

1. The feminist section puts the rest of MN off feminism. So why is the section getting bigger and bigger, with more and more posters? And if it is so unrepresentative of MN, why are anti-feminist activists criticising it across the internet, with examples of threads from across MN not the feminist section as an example of how MNers are a bunch of man haters? It seems that far more extreme things are being said by MN in general than on the feminist section.

we all hold a big bundle of views as a result of our upbringing and what we have learned and thought as adults. Some of them contradict each other. It seems fairly obvious to me that you can be a feminist and have among your beliefs, a few unexamined misogynistic ones that that would contradict some of the other feminist ones.
I don't see what's so difficult about that.
I should think most people who have identified strongly as feminists for years and continue to actively read and think about it still have lightbulb moments from time to time about things they've always assumed to be true but which they realise were actually a result of patriarchal upbringing.

"Do you all identify that strongly with your opinions that you can't separate criticism of them out from personal criticism of yourself?"

But that goes both ways! If somebody makes a comment that doesn't fit with a certain type of feminism - it is seen as blanket anti feminist/mysonigistic

I think that is what most people are objecting to in regards to the feminist section. I don't believe that there is only one kind of feminism, I believe that you can have different opinions on the same subject but we all have the same core belief - that women are equal to men and deserve the same pay/rights/opportunities etc

People want to interact but many are put off - shouldn't we want more women to stand up and have their voices heard?

"When do lovely little boys become a power hungry part of the patriarchy? I just haven't found it yet."

I can tell you when - or at least when some of them do - when they get told to 'man up' by fathers and other men, get packed off to schools where they are made to live a largely male existence and forced to play football. When little boys are encouraged to play fight and take up boxing because daddy wants them to be 'men'. When daddy is overly-competitive and starts to be territorial as soon as the boys even begin to approach adulthood. And I don't exclude women from this process - some of them are just as happy to back up the status quo too. In the same way they like to make girls pretty and gentle and passive. But more often than not it doesn't make girls aggressive and angry - it can do that to boys. What a surprise? Sweeping generalisations about what men and women should be and usually do are so damaging but I've seen some of them on this thread. And IMO that is what feminism is supposed to be combatting.