To be a bit depressed by these figures regarding childcare

[menazovut]

I'm a teacher near the top of the main scale with a (small) management point, so in other words respectable pay. Money is tight though, plus working 3 days isn't great for professional development so I thought I'd pick up a 4th day. I've just calculated that certain months the extra childcare would be MORE than the extra pay, depending on how days fall that month. This taking into account tax, childcare vouchers etc.

It seems like madness that with a very decent job it's still not work my while to work. Many of my friends are in the position were they simply can't afford to work, with ONE child of nursery age. It feels a bit like the balance has gone.

I think Franca is right.

I also firmly believe that all governments in the UK (regardless of politcal persuasion) are happy to have parents "forced" to stay at home with children for economic reasons. Those parents don't appear on unemployment figures because they don't claim unemployment benefit and it leaves jobs open for others who would possibly otherwise show as unemployed.

I think living in London would be a bad idea from what I hear about it on here. Childcare here is 32 a day and that is down South, but not London. I know places in Midlands/North childcare is a lot cheaper than London. I think you were also mad to leave a 3 bed house with huge garden for 72k. We are paying substantially more than that for a flat on the minimum wage with no benefit help except for a little bit towards childcare.

I agree with you absolutely. And I think the real losers in this country are those in the middle like you- needing to work (and indeed wanting to work) but too 'well off' (ha ha ha) to qualify for any additional support, subsidies, tax credits etc. I think its people like this who have been well and truly let down by the govt. We hear a lot about people on very low incomes, but often they get the sort of help which in practical, real terms, makes a big difference eg a friend of mine works part time on a very low wage, but she gets a massive chunk of her childcare costs paid (80% I believe) plus things like free prescriptions and dental care, and in reality (which is what counts after all) she has as much disposable income to spend as she chooses as I do, from my higher paid, longer hours and more pressurised job. No personal gripe with her- shes a mate- but it shows plainly where the govt have gone wrong.
Now in your Case OP, I would have been saying a few months ago ' yes its crap but you will be so much better off in the long term than someone who gives up work or stays in a low paid job- you have a career, pension etc'. And of course lo and behold the govt is shitting on you from a great height there too! You aren't even going to get the long term benefits you signed up to.

My personal view is that we're going to see a massive shift in thinking which will backfire on the govt. People who have scrimped and lived frugally for the promised long term rewards (pensions, better standard of living etc) are going to realise they've been sold a lie and will simply play the system. What is the point of paying thousands of pounds into a pension fund if the govt moves the goal posts? What is the point of working hard and building up savings if in your old age they are simply stripped off you to pay for your care needs? While all the people who never bothered to save, or who spent all their money as they chose, will then get state funded care because they conveniently haven't contributed themselves?

I think the recent strikes are the very thin end of the wedge and we'll see a lot more people speaking up against the way the middle strata of society are being squeezed.

OP - I don't know what the answer is for you personally- but I wouldn't blame you if you looked for lower paid easier work and calculated what entitlements you'd get. You are being screwed over by the govt and you can no longer just rely on the long term advantages of having a career and contributing to your pension. Unless you would be bored shitless giving up work or being in a low grade job, I would give it serious consideration. I think many other people in the coming months and years will too. Until the govt is serious in its assertion that they want working people to be better off, then I don't blame people for playing the system.

ilovedora- we left the house has we had no jobs there (temp teaching contracts and supply but work dried up, we have permanent jobs here plus career progression), not 'mad'. However cheap the house is we needed to be able to afford the mortgage/ living costs. Also with 3 kids (2 step) there are MANY more opportunities for them work or training wise in London. Their futures were a big factor to think of.

I don't understand why subsidising childcare (and means testing the fees) would subsidise the middle classes. Perhaps lower nursery fees would benefit a wider section of society.

The help of grandparents is crucial here where I live (Italy) too, as lots of areas don't enjoy the presence of a good network of nurseries. But I am not sure that the help of grandparents is overall the answer to a country's childcare needs.

Grandparents are definitely NOT the answer- apart from everything else, they will probably have their own work commitments up to the age of late 60s! And do we really want a nation of 70 plus yr olds spending their long awaited retirement chasing after toddlers simply because the parents cant afford for the children to be cared for with their own peer group in a nursery or with a childminder?

People are much more socially mobile too. People have mentioned moving for work opportunities and therefore may not live near grandparents.

Ticktockpillow- absolutely , you are completely right, its the middle earners who are hit. But as I said in my post above, the fact that the govt are now moving the goal posts re: pensions, and alongside that all the indications are that if you're prudent enough to save for your old age, you'll just be stripped of your assets to pay for your care (while people who have spent their money or haven't bothered saving will get state funded provision) - honestly, what is the incentive for thinking long term?

Oh I get what you mean now TTP. I used to live in a part of England where nursery costs were not as sky high as london, plus it's been a few years now...

However, subsidised childcare has worked here where I live for various strata of society.

Do you think these pressures will lead to more one child or no child families, as parents make decisions based on finances?

Interesting point. I'm not sure. I think it could go either way- people either being very cautious and completely re-thinking the family thing and one child being far more common. Or maybe people will throw caution to the wind, as the situation is such that being responsible and sensible isn't rewarded. I think we might see the middle earners refusing to take the pressure of quite demanding jobs, and just seeking easier work, part time hours and more children because tax credits etc will contribute towards childcare

One thing for sure- the middle earners are realising how screwed they're being, and I think something will happen one way or other

But what is a 'well paid career' ? I wouldn't call a teaching or nursing job in london 'well paid.

YY menazovut to your earlier point about there not being any jobs. I've just had to take a job roubhly 300 miles away from where we have lived for the last 5 years. Don't get me wrong, I'm more than grateful to even find a job, but in a ideal world we wouldn't have to move so far. It worries me tbh because I want to ttc after the next year and things aren't likely to have changed much financially are they? Scary times.

If I put my baby into childcare so I can go back to work full time, I would be losing £50.00 per month on what I'd normally take home.

If I stay at home and claim benefits, I lose £200 of my normal income, but look after my child full time, instead of paying someone else to do it for a negative income.

The question I have to ask myself is whether my child needs me more, more than I need £150, and is it worth it to send my child to care providers and still have a negative income?

I agree with the posters suggesting that salaries haven't risen in line with inflation and other costs. Salaries in my field have gone done by circa £5000 per year since the new government came in and jobs in this area are also diminishing.

I also agree that the government should subsidise nurseries more as the wages for childcare providers are dismal. Furthermore, the private sector needs to also have better solutions to childcare - creche on site, or shared creche facilities with other local businesses if single companies are too small or it's not viable for them to provide creche.

Yes, it is a responsible consideration for a parent when having a child, but I think this is a feminist issue, as still most childcare providers are women and most at home childcare is done by the woman in a relationship.

As was said above, the cost of childcare (and other costs like housing, food, etc) has increased beyond the increase in people's earnings.

For example, when I went back to work in 1999 when my eldest DS was 8 months, he went to a childminder FT which cost me £70 a week.

To send a child FT now would be in excess of £200 per week.

My mortgage is also 4 times what it was in 1999.

So, although I now earn double what I did then, and have what is classed as a very good job, being a higher rate taxpayer and all, as a LP I couldn't afford to have another child. My salary would cover my mortgage and childcare, but no more than that.

You have to weigh up the fact that by returning to work helps you maintain your position in the workplace and that you won't be paying childcare fees for a very long period of time. So, whilst you might not be earning much more than you're paying in childcare, you're in a position to further your career more easily than if you took time out and didn't work.

I took six years out and moved town. I still, after seven years at work, haven't got back to the level I was at before and we're also in the financial position of earning above the threshhold for anything but child benefit.

Swings and roundabouts, I'm afraid, but if you do choose not to work and be a SAHM, at least you get to play on the swings and roundabouts with your kids, rather than paying a childminder to do it for you.

Apparently, East Germany was a brilliant place for affordable childcare.

It is subsidized in Australia- you get 50% back if you are working or studying, more if you are on a low income. it would be very unusual for someone to not be able to afford to work. I think that is a good policy for everyone, because the longer you are out of the workforce the less likely you are to return. This way, taxpayers are kept in the system andvwill presumably return more than they are subsidised in the long run.

Otoh, our staff ratios are poor by uk standards.

This country is fucked really. Wages are too low for people to have any kind of family life without heavy subsidies from the government, and we really can't afford that anymore. I just wish things were like they used to be.

I have always got just over 70% of any childcare costs back through Childcare Tax Credit. What would you get?

Mena, have you tried applying for childcare tax credits?

They claim to pay up to 80% of childcare costs. I know 2 people who get it; one gets 40% paid (single mum) the other gets I think 60%.
Might be worth an ask at the tax credits office.

It seems unfair that the govt expect you to work yet fail to provide childcare which you can afford...

My situation is somewhat different; my 2 youngest although teenagers are SLD and there are no child care workers for them. If there were they would be highly untrained and way out of a reasonable league for costs.

Unpaid, unfortunately I don't think there's any chance that two teachers will get any help other than the £20 a week child benefit. My husband and I are in a similar position. I am a nurse, he is a journalist, we both work FT and our combined gross income is just over £45k and we aren't entitled to anything other than the basic child benefit. Our childcare costs for one child are just under £170 a week and we are just about managing but are having to watch every penny. We have a pay freeze at work and DH just managed to survive a round of redundancies so no likelihood of us getting anything extra any time soon. We really wanted to have a small gap between our children but we won't be able to afford to have any more till DS is getting his free nursery sessions - if they are still going when be turns 3! As I said, we're managing but i have to admit that when we were both at uni, doing qualifications required for our jobs, we anticipated a slightly better quality of life than this.